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";s:7:"attribs";a:1:{s:0:"";a:1:{s:7:"version";s:3:"2.0";}}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:1:{s:0:"";a:1:{s:7:"channel";a:1:{i:0;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:112:"
	
	
	
	







































































































";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:1:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:16:"WordPress Planet";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"http://planet.wordpress.org/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:8:"language";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:2:"en";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:47:"WordPress Planet - http://planet.wordpress.org/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"item";a:50:{i:0;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:17:"Matt: What a Week";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151148";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:34:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/what-a-week/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:3576:"<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">There are decades where nothing happens, and there are weeks where decades happen</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">No attribution, <a href="https://quoteinvestigator.com/2020/07/13/decades-weeks/">but fun Quote Investigator dive</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Sorry for dropping off the daily blogging train; it just turned out to be a week of pleasant surprises and life-changing events. I’ll share with y’all the second-most exciting one. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I know I’ve been pushing you all to learn the AI coding stuff as deeply as possible, and I have been doing some myself, my favorite a few years ago, a script to count when we had too many words in a presentation slide, but I knew <a href="https://code.claude.com/docs/en/overview">Claude Code</a> was something different and better.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">However, I fell into the trap of bookmarking and downloading tens of hours of Claude Code tutorials and not installing the thing itself. And work has been busy! My colleague <a href="https://davemart.in/">Dave Martin</a> was hosting an internal livestream. I joined late, then had to leave because an important call came in. I decided to forget it all, throwing caution to the wind, and just install Claude Code and play with it without reading anything.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The next 24-36 hours are a bit of a blur. I haven’t locked into a multi-day coding session fueled by energy drinks, sugar, and cheesy carbs since my early 20s! There were some interruptions for previous commitments, but I basically became addicted to the feeling of that steep learning curve. Every minor annoyance or workflow became an opportunity to create new software in languages I’d never touched before. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It also really rewired my brain, even in how I talk. (Found myself saying “thinking” after a colleague’s question. <img alt="😂" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f602.png" style="height: 1em;" />) I’m thinking about problems in a much more structured manner now, how to divide and chunk tasks, and provide appropriate context and skills. I really do feel like my brain is being terraformed a bit.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So far I&#8217;ve written scripts or apps for grabbing daily summaries from my calendar, spinning up new projects and syncing them with Github, switching between Brave tabs better, an app to search and launch Brave tabs quickly&#8230; </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Did you know that macOS Preview regressed and no longer lets you export a single page of a PDF as an image? I have an app that does that. What do I do with it? Do I open source it? Am I a Mac App developer now? Do I want to support this for other people forever? Should I even put it in source control? Or publish a set of tests and prompts, <a href="https://www.dbreunig.com/2026/01/08/a-software-library-with-no-code.html">as Drew Brenig did with whenwords</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s a strange and wonderful time to be a lover of software and computers. A little bit of code goes a long way. I&#8217;m at a <a href="https://www.ccl.org/leadership-programs/leadership-at-the-peak-training-for-senior-executives/">CCL leadership training</a> this week so offline during the days and exhausted at night but I gotta keep all those little bots running.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 27 Jan 2026 08:53:16 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:1;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:126:"Gutenberg Times: AI Experiments, WordPress 7.0, Gutenberg 22.3 and 22.4, Playground for theme builders — Weekend Edition 354";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=44026";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:130:"https://gutenbergtimes.com/ai-experiments-wordpress-7-0-gutenberg-22-3-and-22-4-playground-for-theme-builders-weekend-edition-354/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33252:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Hi there! </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yes, it&#8217;s been a while. Did you miss me? I hope you and yours had a great start to the new year, and I wish you a healthy, happy and prosperous 2026. I am infinitely grateful you are a reader on this site and newsletter. Thank you for your ongoing support.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">My Year-End vacation directly merged into an intensive training and exploration into AI-first software development. It was eye-opening to say the least and entirely liberating. Ideas can be prototyped fairly quickly and their implementation is not stifled by the level of my personal coding skills. Success heavily depends on a clear vision, architectural consistency and radical quality control.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Although there was a downturn in publishing over the holidays, I found a plethora of posts and plugins again. This edition catches up on most of it. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Looking forward to going through our connecting with you in our eighth year of Gutenberg Times.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yours, <img alt="💕" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f495.png" style="height: 1em;" /><br /><em>Birgit</em></p>





<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="0-word-press-release-information">Developing Gutenberg and WordPress</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Aaron Jorbin</strong> published the <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2026/01/20/wordpress-6-9-1-release-schedule/"><strong>WordPress 6.9.1 Release Schedule</strong></a>. RC1 will be next week on January 29, 2026, and the final release on February 3, 2026. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The GitHub <a href="https://github.com/orgs/WordPress/projects/266">project board of WordPress 6.9.x Editor Tasks</a> lists the PRs that will make it into the release in the <em>Done</em> column. Other core updates are available in this <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/tickets/minor/workflow">trac report</a>.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading" id="wordpress-7-0">WordPress 7.0</h3>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Jeff Paul</strong> <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2026/01/22/announcing-the-wordpress-7-0-release-squad/">announced the <strong>WordPress 7.0 release squad</strong></a>, led by Gutenberg&#8217;s chief architect <strong>Matias Ventura</strong>. It&#8217;s a team of veterans and newbies spread around the globe.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Rae Morey</strong>, The Repository, also reported with more background and details on the state of real-time collaboration feature in her post: <strong><a href="https://www.therepository.email/matias-ventura-named-wordpress-7-0-release-lead-as-contributors-close-in-on-real-time-collaboration-approach">Matías Ventura Named WordPress 7.0 Release Lead as Contributors Close In on Real-Time Collaboration Approach</a></strong></p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordPress 7.0 will run your <strong>post editor inside an iframe by default,</strong> so now&#8217;s the time to test your blocks for compatibility. If you&#8217;re still registering blocks with apiVersion 2, you&#8217;ll start seeing console warnings in WordPress 6.9. The main gotcha: your document and window references won&#8217;t work inside an iframe. You&#8217;ll need to switch to <code>useRefEffect</code> with <code>ownerDocument</code> and <code>defaultView</code> instead of globals. You can find more details in the <a href="https://developer.wordpress.org/block-editor/reference-guides/block-api/block-api-versions/block-migration-for-iframe-editor-compatibility/">official migration guide</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In his post <a href="https://www.unleash-wp.com/blog/wordpress-7-0-enforces-block-api-v3-why-existing-blocks-begin-to-fail/"><strong>WordPress 7.0 Enforces Block API v3: Why Existing Blocks Begin to Fail</strong></a>, <strong>Benjamin Zekavica</strong>, core-team rep,  also provides some tips and Tricks. Custom blocks that target admin selectors like <code>.wp-admin</code> or <code>.editor-styles-wrapper</code>, rely on global <code>document</code> queries, or initialize libraries globally and now fail consistently. Reading through the article, it seems this is mostly related to agency work, with bespoke theme and block development on sites of the early block era.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading" id="gutenberg-releases">Gutenberg releases</h3>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Gutenberg 22.3 and 22.4 have been released. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Hector Prieto</strong> highlights in his release post <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/">Gutenberg 22.3 (December 17)</a></p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/#dedicated-fonts-page-for-easier-typography-management">Dedicated Fonts page for easier typography management</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/#image-editing-improvements">Image editing improvements</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/#responsive-grid-block">Responsive Grid block</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/#other-highlights">Other highlights</a></li>
</ul>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>JuanMa Garrido </strong>led the 22.4 release together with <strong>Anne McCarthy</strong> and they had to tame quite a large changelog with more than 400 PRs merged by 77 contributors, of whom 16 were first-timers! It must have been difficult to pick the top highlights for their release post <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2026/01/22/whats-new-in-gutenberg-22-4-20-january/">What’s new in Gutenberg 22.4? (20 January)</a>:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/#classic-and-hybrid-theme-support-for-the-font-library">Classic and Hybrid Theme Support for the Font Library</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/#pattern-overrides-custom-block-support">Pattern Overrides: Custom Block Support</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/#image-block-focal-point-controls">Image Block: Focal Point Controls</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/#block-visibility-based-on-screen-size-experimental">Block Visibility Based on Screen Size (Experimental)</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/#other-notable-highlights">Other Notable Highlights</a></li>
</ul>



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<div class="wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background"><div class="wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><img alt="🎙" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f399.png" style="height: 1em;" /> The latest episode is <a href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-125-wordpress-6-9-gutenberg-22-1-and-gutenberg-22-2/">Gutenberg Changelog #125 – WordPress 6.9, Gutenberg 22.1 and Gutenberg 22.2</a> with <strong>JC Palmes</strong>, WebDev Studios</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-full is-style-no-vertical-margin"><img alt="Gutenberg Changelog 125 with JC Palmes and host Birgit Pauli-Haack" class="wp-image-43283" height="186" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Screenshot-2025-11-28-at-18.19.29.png?resize=652%2C186&#038;ssl=1" width="652" /></figure>


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</div></figure>
</div></div></div>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Justin Tadlock</strong>&#8216;s <a href="https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2026/01/whats-new-for-developers-january-2026/"><strong>January developer roundup</strong></a> covers new responsive Grid blocks with adjustable columns and widths, an easy-to-use Fonts admin screen, and experimental PHP-only block registration with full metadata. New tools include an image cropper and an updated Abilities API client. The Breadcrumbs block is on track for WordPress 7.0, and Navigation overlay tests are allowing template part assignments. Playground now features a DevTools extension and a new dashboard interface.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="0-p">Plugins, Themes, and Tools for #nocode site builders and owners</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you&#8217;ve ever watched a client accidentally drag your carefully crafted block layout into chaos, <strong>Eric Karkovack</strong> has your back. In his guide on <a href="https://speckyboy.com/protect-wordpress-block-layouts"><strong>How to Protect WordPress Block Layouts From Accidental Changes</strong></a> he walks you through two built-in WordPress safeguards: save your layouts as exportable block patterns you can restore anytime, then use the Lock feature to let clients update content without rearranging your design. You can even lock entire Group blocks at once for extra security. </p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Wes Theron</strong> demonstrates the <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=61xb2zfep28"><strong>Details block for WordPres</strong></a>s, showcasing how you can create collapsible sections perfect for FAQs, definitions, transcripts, and supplemental content. The tutorial covers inserting the block, navigating with List View, and customization options for keeping pages organized and tidy. Theron walks through practical examples showing how the accordion-style functionality helps hide and reveal content on demand, offering a native WordPress solution for managing long explanations without cluttering the page layout.</p>


<div class="wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block" width="100%">
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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Matthew Cowan</strong> released <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/find-blocks-patterns-shortcodes/"><strong>Find Blocks, Patterns &amp; Shortcodes</strong></a>, a plugin that helps users locate Gutenberg blocks on WordPress sites and allows CSV export for content audits. The tool includes batch processing, post-type filtering, synced pattern searches, and WP-CLI support, with sortable results tables. It also features security measures like rate limiting and XSS prevention, and improves accessibility for screen readers and keyboard navigation.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In his post <a href="https://kinsta.com/blog/magic-effects-wordpress-core-blocks/"><strong>How to create magic effects in WordPress with core blocks</strong></a>, <strong>Joel Olawanle</strong> demonstrates creating cinematic effects using only WordPress core blocks, focusing on the Cover block&#8217;s layering capabilities. In his tutorial, Olawanle covers fixed backgrounds for parallax simulation, scroll snap with minimal CSS, creative typography using duotone filters and blend modes, and multi-layered depth through nested Group blocks. Olawanle emphasizes building premium visuals while maintaining performance through native blocks, avoiding heavy page builders and keeping sites lightweight, accessible, and fast.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Matt Cromwell</strong> created the <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/synced-pattern-popups/"><strong>Synced Pattern Popups</strong></a> plugin, which turns WordPress&#8217;s reusable synced patterns into modal popups that load content with AJAX and use smart caching. Triggers can be activated using simple class or href attributes, and third-party blocks display correctly with good styling. The plugin supports accessibility with keyboard navigation and ARIA support, has an optional AI-powered summary feature, and works with WordPress 6.9&#8217;s Abilities API for automated workflows—all without any setup needed.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Justin Tadlock</strong>&#8216;s <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/x3p0-media-data/"><strong>Media Data plugin</strong></a> reveals hidden information from uploaded files—like camera settings, audio tags, and video codecs—through easy-to-use editor blocks that need no coding. Photographers can show exposure details below images, podcasters can add artist info next to players, and archivists can log file sizes and lengths, all using WordPress&#8217;s existing metadata with customizable labels and complete block theme integration. Users of WordPress 6.9 also benefit from Block Bindings support for improved workflows.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Troy Chaplin</strong>&#8216;s <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/priority-plus-navigation/"><strong>Priority Plus Navigation</strong></a> plugin enhances the core Navigation block by managing menu items more efficiently. When space is limited, it moves items into a dropdown for better accessibility. Using <a href="https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/ResizeObserver">ResizeObserver</a>, it monitors width and changes submenus into a &#8220;More&#8221; dropdown while following core overlay settings. The plugin fully supports theme.json for customizing dropdown styles, hover effects, and separators, and ensures keyboard navigation and screen reader compatibility.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Kadim Gültekin</strong> created <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/block-style-modifiers/"><strong>Block Style Modifiers</strong></a> plugin to enhance Gutenberg&#8217;s block styles with additional CSS classes that can layer together. Developers can easily add modifiers for specific blocks or globally using simple PHP functions and can reorder these classes in the editor sidebar. An experimental companion pack showcases hover effects, responsive utilities, and overlay treatments.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In his <a href="https://kau-boys.com/4348/advent-calendar/campaign-archive-block-for-mailchimp-show-an-archive-of-your-newsletter-on-your-website">post</a>, <strong>Bernhard Kau</strong> presents his <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/campaign-archive-block-for-mailchimp/"><strong>Campaign Archive Block</strong></a> plugin, which fixes Mailchimp&#8217;s complicated archive problem by creating dynamic API-driven listings instead of manual archives. Annoyed with Mailchimp&#8217;s clunky JavaScript and formatting issues, Kau developed a plugin that automatically pulls archives and can share API credentials with other Mailchimp plugins. Users can set the display count, choose between title and subject, and include sender metadata, reducing the need for manual updates after sending emails.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Johanne Courtright</strong> released <a href="https://groundworx.dev/resources/groundworx-core-1-3-0-introducing-dynamic-flow-static-flow-featured-posts/"><strong>Groundworx Core 1.3.0 with Dynamic Flow,</strong></a> a query-powered carousel filtering posts by taxonomy or keywords with curated mode for manual selection, Static Flow for building custom slide carousels with any blocks and media pause controls, and Featured Posts displaying content in responsive grids. The update adds responsive breakpoint systems across layouts, block transforms between post disp</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled">Theme Development for Full Site Editing and Blocks</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In my latest post, I show <a href="https://wordpress.com/blog/2026/01/05/build-a-wordpress-theme-demo-with-playground-blueprints/"><strong>how WordPress Playground Blueprints turn theme demos</strong></a> from basic setups into fully functional sites in a browser. Developers create demo content locally, export it, and host assets on GitHub to avoid CORS issues. They then make JSON files that define installation steps, including content import and site setup. The WordPress Importer automatically resizes media and updates URLs. Using this method theme builders can share  links that launch complete working demos with sample content, navigation, and settings preserved.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On the Developer Blog, you can read my article <a href="https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2026/01/streamlining-block-theme-development-with-wordpress-playground-and-github/"><strong>Streamlining block theme development with WordPress Playground and GitHub</strong></a>, where I explained a simple workflow using WordPress Playground, the Create Block Theme plugin, and GitHub to connect visual design with version control. Designers can work entirely within browser-based Playground instances, using CBT&#8217;s <strong>Save Changes</strong> to update theme files and submit pull requests to GitHub—without needing to use a terminal or code editor. This method makes it easier for anyone to work on block themes while upholding professional development standards. It&#8217;s the blog post to the presentation I gave at WordCamp Gdynia last September. The video is now <a href="https://wordpress.tv/2025/09/30/streamlined-block-theme-development-using-wordpress-playground-and-github-for-no-code-version-contr/">available on WordPressTV</a>.</p>



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<div class="ng-block-af93b7e7c68d879f wp-block-newsletterglue-container ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div class="ng-block-vs ng-block-vs-1" colspan="3" height="0" style="height: 0px;"></div></div><div><div class="ng-block-hs ng-block-hs-1" height="0" style="width: 0px;"></div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; text-align: none; color: #666666; background-color: #fdfcea; border-radius: 12px;"><div class="ng-block-486118bdf2e06aa6 wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p><strong> <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg &#8211; Index 2025&#8221;</a> </strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. </p></div></div></div></div>

<div class="ng-block-80baa507a7067ed5 wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p>The previous years are also available: <br /><strong><strong><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/">2020</a> | <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/">2021</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/">2022</a></strong></strong> | <strong><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023">2023</a></strong> | <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2024/"><strong>2024</strong></a></p></div></div></div></div></div><div class="ng-block-hs ng-block-hs-2" height="0" style="width: 0px;"></div></div><div><div class="ng-block-vs ng-block-vs-2" colspan="3" height="0" style="height: 0px;"></div></div></div></div>


<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Carlo Daniele</strong> explores the<a href="https://kinsta.com/blog/wordpress-block-bindings-api/"><strong> Block Bindings API for Kinsta</strong></a>, demonstrating how to connect external data sources to Gutenberg blocks. The tutorial walks you through registering custom binding sources, fetching weather data from Open-Meteo API, and creating a UI for custom sources introduced in WordPress 6.9. Daniele builds a practical example binding temperature and conditions to Paragraph blocks, showcasing how the API transforms WordPress into a dynamic application platform beyond traditional blogging.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Ian Svoboda</strong> helps developers with <a href="https://www.learnwptheme.dev/building-a-custom-block-part-1-scaffolding-block-files/"><strong>creating custom blocks using the create-block package</strong></a>. He covers static and dynamic rendering options and explains important files like block.json, edit.js, and save.js. In his tutorial, he builds a dismissible Notice block, outlines naming conventions for assets in the editor and frontend, and demonstrates automatic block registration with glob pattern matching. Developers need local environments and build tools like <code>wordpress/scripts</code> or <code>10up-toolkit</code>.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In his last week&#8217;s live stream, <strong>Ryan Welcher</strong> went fully into PHP mode and <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1TkFYBMqs"><strong>build Custom WordPress Blocks WITHOUT JavaScript</strong></a>. The Gutenberg plugin now also entails a PHP-only block API in version 22.2 and refined in 22.3. Check out the video and see how it all works.</p>


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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Paulo Carvajal</strong> published a comprehensive guide on <strong><a href="https://wp-block-editor.com/the-interactivity-api-state-flow-a-comprehensive-guide-for-large-scale-applications/">managing Interactivity API state flow for large-scale WordPress applications</a>. </strong>You&#8217;ll learn the three foundational pillars: Global State for page-wide data, Local Context for component isolation, and Derived State for reactive consistency. You also learn unidirectional data patterns, asynchronous actions with withSyncEvent, store namespacing, and server-side hydration strategies to help you build performant enterprise projects.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="wordpress-and-ai">WordPress and AI </h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In his <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa827ct7W_I"><strong>latest video</strong></a>, <strong>Jonathan Bossenger</strong> discussed recent AI-related news in WordPress, including the Plugin Check Namer tool for evaluating plugin names and the introduction of the Abilities API JavaScript client in Gutenberg.  He also showcased the AI Experiments plugin and WP Bench for evaluating the AI capabilities in WordPress development. </p>


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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As <strong>James Le Page</strong> <a href="https://x.com/jameswlepage/status/2013997689155805461">announced on X</a>, the <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/ai/"><strong>AI Experiments plugin</strong></a> has received significant updates that include AI-powered excerpt generation fully integrated with the editor, along with a new Abilities Explorer admin screen for viewing registered AI features. The backend now supports Content Summarization and Image Generation experiments, which are pending UI development. Additionally, documentation and onboarding materials were improved, and WordPress Playground preview support was added to streamline workflows, allowing developers to test changes directly from pull requests.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Ray Morey</strong> has the skinny for you here: <a href="https://www.therepository.email/ai-experiments-0-2-0-adds-excerpt-generation-and-abilities-explorer"><strong>AI Experiments 0.2.0 Adds Excerpt Generation and Abilities Explorer </strong></a></p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>WordVell</strong>&#8216;s editorial team examined <a href="https://wordvell.com/ai-use-cases-of-mcp-for-wordpress-and-woocommerce/"><strong>fourteen practical MCP implementations changing WordPress and WooCommerce</strong></a> workflows from manual tasks to AI-driven automation. This protocol allows natural language commands, such as &#8220;publish this post,&#8221; to be executed instantly via servers like InstaWP, OttoKit, and n8n. Use cases include AI-driven content creation with SEO, automating admin tasks across sites, product search conversations, personalized customization, and guided checkout experiences.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>James Le Page</strong> also <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/ai/2026/01/14/introducing-wp-bench-a-wordpress-ai-benchmark/"><strong>announced WP-Bench</strong></a>, a benchmark that measures how well language models understand WordPress development. This tool assesses models on WordPress APIs, hooks, security patterns, and features like the Abilities API while testing code in a secure WordPress environment. The goal is to set a standard evaluation for AI providers, encouraging them to improve for WordPress&#8217;s many developers.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>David Levine</strong>, a senior software engineer at rtCamp, explained in the article <a href="https://rtcamp.com/resources/abilities-api-making-wordpress-more-composable/"><strong>Beyond AI: What the Abilities API means for WordPress Composability</strong></a> that the new Abilities API allows developers to register specific &#8220;abilities&#8221; using a clear, machine-readable format. This approach replaces scattered hooks and custom REST endpoints, making plugins and core features more composable. It helps third-party code integrate easily without needing extensive knowledge of internal functions. The API also allows AI and automated tools to find and use capabilities automatically, leading to a more modular and future-ready WordPress ecosystem while maintaining backward compatibility for gradual changes. </p>


<div class="ng-block-852717f1669b7fad wp-block-newsletterglue-container ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div class="ng-block-vs ng-block-vs-1" colspan="3" height="0" style="height: 0px;"></div></div><div><div class="ng-block-hs ng-block-hs-1" height="0" style="width: 0px;"></div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; text-align: none; color: #666666; background-color: #f8f8f8; border-radius: 8px;"><div class="ng-block-ef42b2658bc98402 wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p><strong><a href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/need-a-zip-from-master/">Need a plugin .zip from Gutenberg&#8217;s master branch?</a></strong><br />Gutenberg Times provides daily build for testing and review.</p></div></div></div></div>

<div class="ng-block-9d05707a92cca5c3 wp-block-newsletterglue-image ng-block size-full is-resized" width="100%"><div><div><div align="center" class="ng-block-td" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px;"><a href="https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json"><img alt="" class="wp-image-42874 ng-image" height="45" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Screenshot-2025-11-15-at-12.06.44.png?resize=196%2C45&#038;ssl=1" style="border-style: none; border-color: transparent;" width="196" /></a></div></div></div></div>

<div class="ng-block-dcb88dff5fb9c739 wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p>Now also available via <a href="https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json">WordPress Playground</a>. There is no need for a test site locally or on a server. Have you been using it? <a href="mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com">Email me </a>with your experience.</p></div></div></div></div></div><div class="ng-block-hs ng-block-hs-2" height="0" style="width: 0px;"></div></div><div><div class="ng-block-vs ng-block-vs-2" colspan="3" height="0" style="height: 0px;"></div></div></div></div>


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<p class="has-text-align-center has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><em>Questions? Suggestions? Ideas? </em><br /><em>Don&#8217;t hesitate to send <a href="mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com">them via email</a> or</em><br /><em> send me a message on WordPress Slack or Twitter @bph</em>.</p>



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<p class="has-text-align-center has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph">For questions to be answered on the <a href="http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast">Gutenberg Changelog</a>, <br />send them to <a href="mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a></p>


<div class="ng-block-04374f2b8a4d0a0f wp-block-newsletterglue-separator ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="center" class="ng-block-td" style="padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; color: #666666;"><hr style="background-color: transparent; color: transparent; margin: 0; border: 0; border-top: 1px solid #666666; width: 560px; height: 0;" /></div></div></div></div>

<div class="wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block" width="100%"><div class="ng-block-81b476db7943b5d9 wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 0.2; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p><strong>Featured Image: </strong>Ai generated.</p></div></div></div></div></div>




<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 24 Jan 2026 06:05:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:18:"Birgit Pauli-Haack";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:2;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:39:"Open Channels FM: It’s Okay to Let Go";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114519";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://openchannels.fm/when-its-time-to-let-go/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:156:"Being a creator also means there are many times where it's tough to let go of ideas or even businesses. You need to figure out that sweet spot for yourself.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 23 Jan 2026 12:38:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:3;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:93:"Open Channels FM: Growing Agency Success with People-Centric Values and Open Source Education";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114458";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:100:"https://openchannels.fm/growing-agency-success-with-people-centric-values-and-open-source-education/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:206:"In this episode, Anne Bovelett chats with Rahul Bansal and Aviral Mittal from rtCamp, highlighting the agency's growth since 2009, commitment to accessibility, and innovative training programs in WordPress.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 22 Jan 2026 09:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:4;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:81:"WPTavern: #201 – Marc Benzakein on How Life Has Changed During the Internet Era";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=202326";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:95:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/201-marc-benzakein-on-how-life-has-changed-during-the-internet-era";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:62157:"<details>Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress, the people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case how life has changed during the internet era.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today, we have Marc Benzakein. Marc&#8217;s story is one that spans nearly the entire history of the internet, with roots reaching back to the mid nineties. He explores, how curiosity and an enthusiastic embrace of technology led him from running a small coffee importing business, accepting payments by snail mail, fax, then email, to helping wire up schools for internet access when modems worked incredibly slowly, and only a handful of people were online.</p>



<p>This episode is a departure from our usual topic about plugins, themes, and WordPress community news. Instead, we are more in the business of reminiscing this week, taking a reflective walk down memory lane to look at how the internet has evolved, not just as a technology, but as an integral part of society that&#8217;s transformed how we work, communicate, and think.</p>



<p>Marc shares some personal stories, building bulletin board systems, forging long distance friendships over phone lines and slow modems, and watching as internet access shifted from an intentional, difficult to navigate hobby for a few, to an invisible always on utility that we all take for granted.</p>



<p>We talk about how technology has affected not only business and productivity, often creating more work instead of less, but also our attention spans, expectations around entertainment, the pace of life, and even the social fabric that binds us together.</p>



<p>We discuss the cultural shifts that came with always connected living, digital minimalism, and the recent push by younger generations to step back from tech and reclaim a bit of analog life.</p>



<p>We chat about the early optimism of open standards, the rise of walled gardens and social networks, and the challenges of regulation, commercialisation, and the balancing act between freedom and responsibility online.</p>



<p>Marc&#8217;s perspective is shaped by decades of direct technical experience, as well as thoughtful observations of how technology is reshaping the world around us, sometimes for the better, sometimes in ways we need to pause and question.</p>



<p>Whether you are nostalgic for the old days of dial up, intrigued by how the internet&#8217;s culture has shifted, or curious about how these transformations might play out as new technologies like AI reshape society, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Marc Benzakein.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast by Marc Benzakein. Hello, Marc.</p>



<p>[00:03:44] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Hello, Nathan. How are you?</p>



<p>[00:03:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, good. This is going to be an episode unlike one I think we&#8217;ve ever done on the WP Tavern podcast. Because usually we have a conversation about, I don&#8217;t know, a plugin, a theme, a community idea, something along those lines. And today we&#8217;re just going to do memory lane. We&#8217;re going to go hand in hand down memory lane.</p>



<p>I think Marc&#8217;s memory lane is a little bit longer than my memory lane because it&#8217;s all about the internet and the way we&#8217;ve been using it and how it&#8217;s evolved and all of that. So if you&#8217;ve got an expectation of a plugin show, this is not the one for you. This is going to be a little bit different.</p>



<p>So before we crack in properly and have that conversation, Marc, would you just sort of paint the picture a little bit about your bio? Maybe go back right to the beginning of your experiences on the internet. When did you first get online and all that kind of stuff?</p>



<p>[00:04:30] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> So I want to go back to, I think it was 1995 or 1996. There was a, of course people hear about, and it still exists, AOL and things like that. And then there was Prodigy. I got involved as a user of the internet with a company called Netcom. And it was kind of one of the first true internet service providers that I knew of at the time. It wasn&#8217;t like, it didn&#8217;t have like this interface and kind of guide you through where you needed to go and everything. You had to use things like Gopher, and you had to do research in order to be able to use the internet.</p>



<p>I of course, became fascinated with it always being a, kind of a tech head or just curious. I&#8217;m just infinitely curious. It doesn&#8217;t really matter, it doesn&#8217;t have to be technology. It can be anything and I find it, like I said, I&#8217;m infinitely curious and that leads to distractions sometimes, but it also leads me down paths that I never would&#8217;ve thought.</p>



<p>And while I was working on the internet, so this was at a time that I was actually importing coffee from Africa. So yeah, so related. So related. And I had actually made some pretty good money with the coffee business. I was doing the email thing. I had like my three friends who had email addresses and we were like, oh, this is cool. Look at this, instant gratification. And I thought, man, it sure would be cool to see what this looks like from the other side of things. Because I have no clue how any of this works.</p>



<p>And so curious thing happened with the coffee company. I was importing from a country called Burundi in Africa. Some people know where it is, some people don&#8217;t. I actually never visited, but my uncle was actually a big shot in the agriculture department there which is how I had the connection to be able to import coffee into the United States. They had a lot of civil and political unrest, and essentially burned the coffee fields. And my uncle fled the country because it had become so dangerous.</p>



<p>So one day I&#8217;m, basically I had set up a system in which I import the coffee, it goes to a distributor. Once a month I would go out to the mailbox and collect a cheque. And that was my job. It was the easiest thing I ever did, once I got the system built. And so, lo and behold, civil unrest and all that, which was just awful by the way, but I&#8217;m out of business because I can&#8217;t import coffee from Burundi. And I was really young, and probably not smart enough to think, maybe I should back this up with other countries too.</p>



<p>But coincidentally, a person that I had gone to high school with, they built computers for schools and things like that, so they had some government contracts and things like that. And they had this crazy idea that they wanted to connect schools to the internet. And they wanted to give them high speed access. Now, keep in mind that back in these days we&#8217;re talking about 14.4K, it was, well, we thought it was fast at the time. You know, you had US robotics with their HST standard. And we thought that we were doing well, but most people were actually on 24 hundreds back then.</p>



<p>So if you can imagine that, 2,400 baud modems. I remember it like it was a meal ago. I mean it was just crazy. And so now, I was like importing coffee and I was trying to figure out what to do next and Greg Franklin, who I have partnered with since like the eighties, we&#8217;ve been through a lot. We were partners at ServerPress. We&#8217;ve been through it all. He and I, you know, we were always good friends. And he says, hey, I&#8217;m going to work with Phil and Steve on this internet thing, and it&#8217;d be kind of cool if you help me out because I have no clue what I&#8217;m doing. I&#8217;m like, well, I have no clue what I&#8217;m doing either. And he said, yeah, but between the two of us, we can figure it out.</p>



<p>So the idea was, they had already set up, Phil and Steve, who were the other partners in this company, they had set up digital ISDN access. Now, ISDN, let&#8217;s see, what did that stand for? Something, something, digital network.</p>



<p>[00:08:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I can&#8217;t remember what the acronym stood for, but it was banded around a lot, I remember that.</p>



<p>[00:08:36] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Yeah. And what made it fantastic was you had a modem, okay, but it was kind of on demand. So when your computer sent out a network request that was outside of your internal network, which nobody had home internal networks back then. You know, if they had a computer, that was it, right? Back then, internal networks were things like, there was like LANtastic was one of them, and then there was Novell networking and all that stuff. So it was like that token ring network stuff, right? Okay. So you have to go way back, right? So I can&#8217;t believe I&#8217;m remembering some of these terms because it&#8217;s been so long.</p>



<p>[00:09:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I remember all of the ways that they could be connected. I remember seeing the, you know, you&#8217;d read through TCP IP documentation and there&#8217;d be diagrams of computers connected with T cables all in circles because that was the most efficient way to connect them all. Oh gosh, you&#8217;ve taken me back.</p>



<p>[00:09:26] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> It wasn&#8217;t just the most efficient way, it was, if any part of that ring broke, the whole network broke down. You had have it, you know? So this concept of plugging into a switch or a router or something like that was like completely, pardon the pun, but completely novel. Not Novell, novel.</p>



<p>[00:09:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Novell, yeah, very good. Very good.</p>



<p>[00:09:48] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> So I built a lot of token ring systems for local businesses and things like that, but nobody had a network at home. They generally, at most had one computer at home. And when they wanted to go online, I should go back even before that, I used to run a bulletin board service, a BBS, which was even more ridiculous than a 2,400 baud modem.</p>



<p>[00:10:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> This was when there were like three people in the United States online.</p>



<p>[00:10:14] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Yeah. And essentially I would have my computer, I was living in an apartment at the time. I would have my computer set up and only one person could connect at a time to my computer, which was set up with this BBS software on it. And they would play games. I had downloads of different files and things like that. I was the first BBS in our region to have a one gigabyte SCSI hard drive. And so I became very, obviously my BBS became very popular, not because I offered anything incredible, but because I had a one gigabyte hard drive.</p>



<p>[00:10:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, you had the badge of honor.</p>



<p>[00:10:48] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Yeah. And word spread quickly and all that. In the old fashioned ways, which was carrier pigeons and things like that.</p>



<p>[00:10:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s right. There was no, yeah, or the bulletin board.</p>



<p>[00:10:57] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Yeah, or the bulletin, yeah. And I think that was probably where I got kind of this taste of like how cool it could be because I would modify my own stuff. So I would, we used a bulletin board software called WWIV. It was all C++ coded. And there was this guy that somehow I found, I don&#8217;t even know, in Virginia. His name was Tony. And he and I got to be really good friends because he ran a bulletin board system too in Virginia and I&#8217;m in California. And we would get on phone calls, long distance mind you. If you remember what long distance was.</p>



<p>We would talk for hours and this guy was one of the funniest guys I&#8217;ve ever met. I mean we would, he would just call me up to tell me, we got to the point where he&#8217;d just call me up to tell me jokes and we would just laugh for hours. But he was in the military. He worked on the helicopters that flew George Bush senior around. He was in the Marines.</p>



<p>And we met up one time because he flew out to California. But that&#8217;s a whole side story. So that&#8217;s where I got started. And then I invested in a US Robotics 14.4 HST modem. So I could do, yeah, 14,400K per second, which was like, I don&#8217;t know what the time of $500 modem or something ridiculous like that.</p>



<p>[00:12:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, you&#8217;ve suddenly taken your computer onto the highway instead of being stuck on back lanes.</p>



<p>[00:12:16] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Right. So not only did I have my one gigabyte SCSI drive, but I also had high speed BBS connection.</p>



<p>[00:12:23] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You got all the bling that you can have.</p>



<p>[00:12:26] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> I had all the bling on my 286 computer. It might have been a 486, I don&#8217;t know. I don&#8217;t remember the computer. But what was funny was like you would sit there, we&#8217;d be watching TV and I&#8217;d hear my modem go off because someone would be connecting to the BBS. I would drop what I was doing just so that I could go and see what they were doing, right? Because at my end I could see everything that people were doing, so on top of it all. That was probably my foray into the internet, even though I didn&#8217;t realise it at the time.</p>



<p>[00:12:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Although for a proportion of the listeners, they&#8217;ll be kind of nodding their head and going, oh yeah, all of the things that you described make perfect sense. I guess for a significant proportion of the audience, all of this will sort of sound like a mystery. But hopefully you&#8217;ll have got some impression, deal listener, the internet as we now know it, where it&#8217;s ubiquitous, it really is everywhere. You know, you&#8217;ve got a connection if you&#8217;re walking down the street with your cellular network and what have you.</p>



<p>In the part of the world, certainly where I live, and I imagine where you live, there&#8217;s no real black spot where the internet does not really exist. And everything&#8217;s really straightforward. You buy a device from a shop, turn it on and it connects almost immediately. And yet that really wasn&#8217;t the case. It was kind of like more pioneering days. Most things didn&#8217;t work, but it was a heck of a lot of fun, and a heck of a lot hobbying. So more of actually. Now that I think about it, that&#8217;s the best way to phrase it. It was a hobby, things to do.</p>



<p>[00:13:48] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> It absolutely was a hobby. Very few of us actually had, well, I don&#8217;t think any of us had the foresight that the internet would become what it is right now. At least none of the people in my circles. I think it was, it would be the equivalent of like being a Ham radio operator. You know, it&#8217;s kind of the same sort of thing. You kind of felt like you were part of this like little elite group of people who understood how it worked and could make it work, and it made you feel special. And for those of us who grew up kind of being that nerd in high school and things like that, and especially back in the seventies and eighties when, I mean I went to school, there were only three people who even knew how to use a keyboard on a computer. And of course we, I mean they made a fricking movie called Revenge of the Nerds. They made fun of us.</p>



<p>It&#8217;s amazing that we haven&#8217;t had, well, I think a lot of us have had to go through years and years and years of therapy. And I think that I just probably deflected a lot of that sort of treatment of nerds with like a very sharp tongue and a, you know, a very, I would laugh at it and things like that. So that was kind of my coping mechanism probably. And I probably have some trauma from all that that I don&#8217;t even remember. But there&#8217;s probably something there, but that&#8217;s a whole other show. We can talk about that another time.</p>



<p>[00:15:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. So the fact that it was a hobby and also the fact that, so my recollections start a little bit later than yours, but we&#8217;re not like a whole decade out of kilter. I think you definitely started at times where I can remember some of that stuff. You certainly got the march on me. But nevertheless, I don&#8217;t think in my estimation I had any conception that it would grow beyond a thing that hobbyists did.</p>



<p>So I think it was always going to remain this sort of niche hobby thing. Maybe some sort of place where you would communicate with a handful of people, and that handful of people would be, you know, equally nerdy in the same way that you or I were. But no expectation that it would be adopted en masse. No expectation that every single human being would have some sort of device, either that they&#8217;re walking around with or just in their home or anything like that.</p>



<p>And so I think, looking back, I predicted it would just be this hobby thing and would never grow into anything else. And so it was just a bit of a lark, a bit of fun. Something that you&#8217;d put away from time, you know, you would set it down, go and do your regular day, then come back. There was no email, nothing like that. So you could safely put it away and then come back to it.</p>



<p>I look back on it very fondly. It&#8217;s almost like halcyon days. And so many things that the internet has been connected with, and is connected with now are fabulous, but there&#8217;s also a lot of downsides which have come serendipitously along the way as well. Nobody foresaw those either. So I think, like I say, it was sort of halcyon days. Just this notion that it would be, I don&#8217;t know, unicorns and rainbows all the way down.</p>



<p>[00:16:33] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Right. The closest prediction that I had made back then was I said, you know, one day we are all going to be connected. But I thought it was going to be one of these kind of like, we go on and we intentionally connect with each other, not like we&#8217;re always connected all the time kind of thing. Of course I was young and quite the gamer at the time. I said, here&#8217;s what&#8217;s going to happen is, I predict that one day games will exist where we keep all the files on our own systems, and the only thing that&#8217;s being transmitted to each other is just data to like, so we can like play together all at the same time in these games.</p>



<p>That was my prediction and people would laugh at me. And now of course it&#8217;s gone way, way, way beyond that. But every once in a while I&#8217;m like, see, I told them and I did nothing about it. I just knew it was going to happen and I did nothing about it.</p>



<p>[00:17:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I remember when I was at school, sitting in a physics class, and I for some reason got sat next to probably the nerdiest nerd I&#8217;ve ever met. I won&#8217;t name him, but he is still very nerdy. He really was like on the extreme end of interested in all of this kind of stuff. And I remember we got into a conversation once where he said, do you know what I think is going to happen in the future? I think you&#8217;ll be able to, so we still had cathode ray tellies, so you&#8217;d turn the tele on, you&#8217;d wait for three minutes for the TV to warm up, and then the picture would slowly appear. And that was the level that we were at, and you had to walk over and press a button on the screen if you want to change it between the four channels or three channels that were available in the UK at the time.</p>



<p>[00:18:01] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Yeah, the kids were the remotes back in those days.</p>



<p>[00:18:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s right. We were literally, either that or a big stick that you could try and prod from the sofa. But he said to me, in the future we&#8217;ll have televisions that are just connected to computers somehow, and we&#8217;ll pick what we want to watch, and we won&#8217;t have to just watch what&#8217;s provided to us. We&#8217;ll be able to say, I&#8217;d like that now, and this now, and watch this film now. And he just predicted this future. And I remember sitting there thinking, that&#8217;s never going to happen.</p>



<p>Now that&#8217;s kind of like the starting gate for children growing up in this era. That&#8217;s like the basic provision. If you haven&#8217;t got, you know, the computer switched on and the TV and the music and the radio and all of that on demand, yeah, that&#8217;s not life, that&#8217;s just some sort of poor version of life. It&#8217;s so interesting how it&#8217;s transformed what we expect.</p>



<p>[00:18:55] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> It&#8217;s funny because, yeah, you hear the kids being like, what do you mean you had to wait till Tuesday night at eight o&#8217;clock in order to watch? And if you didn&#8217;t see it, you&#8217;d miss it completely. What do you mean by that?</p>



<p>[00:19:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. But even map that further back and, you know, you go back a whole generation or a generation and a half prior to you and I, even the notion that you could watch anything on a box in a house, what do you mean, the theater? Somebody brought the theater to your house. Well, yeah, kind of, in a little box. What, they shrunk the people down? How? It&#8217;s insane.</p>



<p>And yet, every single generation, this is now the assumption. The technology of the magnitude that we&#8217;ve got now, and the complexity that we&#8217;ve got now, and the miniaturisation that we&#8217;ve got now, this is now the benchmark for the beginning of the next generation. And it&#8217;s so interesting watching it happen.</p>



<p>I don&#8217;t know what you feel. I&#8217;m probably jumping ahead because I want to go back and talk about some of the things which have gone wrong. But what&#8217;s your, do you see yourself fully able to engage with all of the new things that are happening?</p>



<p>So we&#8217;re in the year, we&#8217;re at the very, very end of 2025 and, you know, we&#8217;ve got things like AI. We&#8217;ve had all sorts of interesting things happening. And I do wonder, for me at least anyway, I do wonder if there&#8217;s a point in time where it just races ahead at such a speed that somebody like me really does genuinely struggle to kind of keep up. I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve got the same intuitions.</p>



<p>[00:20:13] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> I actually think everybody does. I think that kids do too. I just think that kids are focused, for instance, on what&#8217;s important to them. And they&#8217;re at a different point in their life, so what&#8217;s important to them is not important to us. And so the technology that&#8217;s important to them like, say for instance, TikTok or whatever, is just an example, right? I only care about TikTok insofar as, what can it do to boost my brand? Or something like that.</p>



<p>Although it is interesting that kids are interested in boosting their brand on TikTok and they&#8217;re kids. But that&#8217;s, they may not realise that that&#8217;s what they&#8217;re doing, but that&#8217;s what they&#8217;re doing. But as far as technologies go, I think we just tend to use a technology, I think we&#8217;ve reached an age where, with the exception of maybe teleportation, we really feel like, if I can think this, we can do this. And so we just kind of like, now we&#8217;re just like, okay, I want to do this, what do I have to do in order to do it? Not, that&#8217;s impossible. You know, I think we&#8217;ve crossed over that hump of things being impossible.</p>



<p>[00:21:15] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I remember sitting in the car with my children. So this is going back several years now. I mean quite, maybe a decade or more. And I remember my child asking to play a certain song on the car radio. I said to him, we don&#8217;t have that. And he looked at me and he said, what do you mean we don&#8217;t have it? Because the setup that I had in the car still required compact disks. You know, the old CD player. You would put the CD in and so the arrangement of CDs that we had in the car was the available catalog of songs.</p>



<p>But he could not get over, unavailable. What? What do you mean? I mean, genuinely, it was a real moment where he had to think, the song is bound to that round thing. It&#8217;s not just coming out of the ether somehow. And that was quite a profound moment for me thinking, wow, your world is a lot bigger than mine, well, smaller and bigger at the same time, but your expectations are so different to what mine were when I grew up.</p>



<p>[00:22:10] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> I think that, oh, I mean I hate to sound like, oh, kids today, but kids today, I mean they barely know what an iPod is. And how long ago was that? That wasn&#8217;t even that long ago. Because it&#8217;s like, what, you had to download your music onto this device? Yeah, because it could hold more music than a CD. For us, the iPod was groundbreaking, right? But I remember the first time I could put music on my phone and I was like, oh, this is awesome. I don&#8217;t even, once again, I don&#8217;t even know why we call them phones anymore. I hardly ever use it to talk to people.</p>



<p>[00:22:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, your pocket computer.</p>



<p>[00:22:40] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> It&#8217;s way more powerful than anything I ever had in the past. I think because kids are in a constant state of having to adapt anyway, that&#8217;s just what growing up is, is a constant state of adaptation. I think that it&#8217;s easier for them. I do find that I&#8217;m a little bit slower or I might be just more selective. I might just be like, you know, this doesn&#8217;t interest me. And it may this be like I&#8217;m becoming more and more, get off my lawn as I get older. Or it may be that I&#8217;ve always, even back when we started the internet service provider, my feeling was that we have all this power at our hands and we are still children when it comes to us as a society and our ability to be responsible.</p>



<p>[00:23:25] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s a curious insight isn&#8217;t it?</p>



<p>[00:23:28] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Technology has always been kind of a double-edged sword for me. It&#8217;s amazing what you can do, but going back to the coffee days, I remembered how the speed of business changed for me because we had fax machines. And so I would fax to the people in Burundi because we would, coffee would go to auction. I&#8217;d have to bid on it and, you know, get the lot and then have it shipped over here. And the next morning I would, you know, because of the time difference, I would send them a fax in my morning and then the next morning I&#8217;d have a fax from them.</p>



<p>And we&#8217;re talking about not even 10 years ago, everything had to be done by courier and things like that. And it would be days and days and days before you got information or you&#8217;d have to make a phone call. And so that was like the first part of, you could sign contracts in a fax machine. And then we got email, which became even more instantaneous. And as a result, going back to like when personal computers came into our homes, a big part of it was, hey, these things, well, you can do in two hours, what you used to be able to do it eight hours.</p>



<p>And I very quickly learned that nobody was working a two hour day once technology came into our homes. In fact, people were not only bringing their work home, but they were working 14 and 16 hour days. And my thought, I was probably 18 or 20 years old, and my thought even at that time was like, we are not responsible enough to have this kind of technology at our fingertips. And I still feel that way. And so I&#8217;ve always struggled with this like, we have technology but we do not have the ability to limit ourselves or to discipline ourselves to say, okay, but how much is actually enough here?</p>



<p>[00:25:06] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you know? That&#8217;s really curious. It&#8217;s not something I dwell on a lot, but when you say it, it makes perfect sense. It&#8217;s not like the amount of work that we were doing 50 years ago, the amount that needs to be done objectively is the same now than it was then. I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s the case. I think the amount of work always fills up the available time.</p>



<p>And so this promise, which has been offered in multiple generations over hundreds of years, you know, you can go back to the industrial revolution or the agricultural revolution, just the idea that the technology will free up time. Clearly it does, but I think it&#8217;s true to say that other things occupy that time because there&#8217;s an efficiency gained over here. Well, that leaves you a little bit of time to do this extra other task over here. And because everybody&#8217;s bound up to the technology, everybody has this available time, which they then fill up. And so the cycle begins.</p>



<p>And in many ways, I feel exactly like you&#8217;ve just described. Instead of going from an eight hour day, the fact that we&#8217;ve got the technology in our homes and we can check the email during the middle of the night, and so on and so forth, I think it is entirely possible that the workday could be longer now than it ever has been. I mean not for everybody, and not all the time, but it certainly could be.</p>



<p>Curiously, last night I went to, there&#8217;s a history society that I attend locally and we had a magic lantern show. And I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;ve come across a magic lantern show, but a magic lantern show is, it&#8217;s a wooden box with a whole bunch of candles in it. They put painted glass slides in, and some of the painted glass slides, if they manipulate them in a certain way, they can simulate movement, or arms moving around or.</p>



<p>[00:26:41] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Yeah, they&#8217;re really cool.</p>



<p>[00:26:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I really was hit by a sense of, that was entertainment. And there was such pleasure and innovation in that. And it&#8217;s the same now, right? Along comes the internet and we get the same pleasure out of that. And along comes AI and the next generation will get the same amount of pleasure out of that. But it was also curious to see, and I&#8217;m just going to use the word slow, how slow that activity was.</p>



<p>There was a lot of breathing room. There was a lot of space for you to inject your own thoughts. There was a lot of time waiting for the chap to pull out one slide and put the other one in. Whole minutes would go by and nothing would happen. But there was no expectation that, well, we just lost a couple of minutes there.</p>



<p>So I think that&#8217;s kind of leading me onto an unexpected consequence of the internet is maybe that we&#8217;ve lost the capacity to think in that kind of slow manner, which I really hadn&#8217;t parsed it until last night when I saw what entertainment was 150 years ago. And it was so gentle and slow and enormously pleasurable. Once you&#8217;d suspended that there&#8217;s no CGI, there&#8217;s no Tom Cruise there, it&#8217;s just a person on a glass slide. But it was absolutely fascinating. It gave me a real window into the pace of life and what that might have been and how that has changed. And it will, I presume, never, that genie will never go back in the box.</p>



<p>[00:28:05] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Well, no. I mean it&#8217;s impossible for any of that. I mean I can bring it to modern day terms. When you watch or listen to a podcast, do you listen to it at regular speed or do you listen to it at 1.5 or 2?</p>



<p>[00:28:15] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, there you go. Yeah, most people I think.</p>



<p>[00:28:18] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Yeah. If I have a day where I am doing nothing, I even watch my movies now, I watch them at 1.5x or 2x. And it&#8217;s crazy because your brain adapts to it very quickly. But then what happens is, if I&#8217;ve gone through a whole day of like listening to podcasts or something like that, which I&#8217;ll have going on in the background and I have no interaction with people, when I&#8217;m done listening to them, it is dreadfully dreadful. I become impatient talking to people because they talk so slowly.</p>



<p>And then I wonder, am I speaking faster than I normally do now because I&#8217;ve been listening to this podcast. And I have to reset my brain. And the thing is, I kind of feel like, I have this theory on ADHD, which I definitely have. My theory on ADHD is, there&#8217;s this misconception that ADHD is something where you can&#8217;t keep your attention on any one thing, which we&#8217;re finding out that&#8217;s not true. You either hyperfocus or you&#8217;re not focused, in simple terms.</p>



<p>And I feel like what it boils down to is a ADHDers have to have 100% of their bandwidth taken up all the time. That&#8217;s what it boils down to. So if what I&#8217;m working on requires a hundred percent of my bandwidth, I can hyper focus on it and do nothing else. If I don&#8217;t then, I&#8217;ve got four screens on my computer. I used to have six, but I&#8217;ve got four. I&#8217;ve pared it down to four and I&#8217;ve got something going on on all those screens. If I&#8217;m doing something that&#8217;s kind of mundane and just, because I have to have that filled all the time.</p>



<p>But I think that as a society, you talked about time, and it&#8217;s really kind of a rule of economics, right? You spend what you make. No matter what you&#8217;re making, you&#8217;re going to spend it all. That&#8217;s kind of like this echo. And it&#8217;s the same with time. Unless we actually discipline ourselves to say, look, mental health is just as important, so that means downtime, meditation, all these things are just as important no matter what society tells us. Those things are just as productive as putting out a widget or whatever you&#8217;re doing.</p>



<p>And so I think that what has to happen at a societal level, in order for us to gain back some of this discipline, is we need to recognise that while, yes, we need to take up a hundred percent of our time, what are the important things that we need to do in order to take up that a hundred percent of the time? And the reality is, some of that is downtime. Some of that is sleep, some of that is eating, some of that is interacting with people or whatever it may be. And I think technology, because it is constantly the shining new object, takes us away from all of that.</p>



<p>[00:30:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think for me, the profundity of the internet, let&#8217;s just use that term, you know, whatever is bound up inside that term, is enormous. You know, it&#8217;s probably the most, up till now, maybe AI will come to surpass that, but up until this point, I think the internet is probably the most profound technological invention of all time.</p>



<p>[00:31:04] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> I call it the eighth wonder of the world.</p>



<p>[00:31:05] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, right. So the capacity for all that it brings. The fact that you can communicate with people, as I am with you. You are literally on the other side of the planet, and I&#8217;m talking to you as if you are stood next to me. The mind boggles. But also access to news, access to publishing your own information, seeking out communities that are just like you and the myriad way, oh, commerce. Let&#8217;s not forget that. That whole thing. The capacity for that, remarkable. All of it, remarkable and amazing.</p>



<p>But I think fair to say that there&#8217;s always swings and roundabouts. All of those wonderful things that we&#8217;ve just described, there&#8217;s probably some missteps along the way. And that was one of the things that I wanted to ask you. Are there any bits during the internet&#8217;s evolution to where we are now, where you think, do you know what, maybe we shouldn&#8217;t have done that? Maybe that wasn&#8217;t a good idea. Have you got any sort of thoughts on that, where you look back and you think the internet probably could have avoided that aspect?</p>



<p>[00:31:58] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> I could think of a lot of little things. I think it&#8217;s one of those million little things, right? So going back to those days, it was really quite interesting. You know, I didn&#8217;t know what DNS was. I didn&#8217;t know, I barely knew what an ethernet cable was. We had this box sitting there that was a Cisco router. I had no idea what a router was. I mean, all this stuff because it was all pre-configured.</p>



<p>And I think the thing that blew me away back then, and this doesn&#8217;t really answer your question, but the thing that blew me away was, here we had people that we would get on phone calls with each other to work through problems, because this guy understood DNS, this guy understood routing. The two didn&#8217;t both understand both. It was really insane that it worked at all.</p>



<p>And I remembered sitting there going, this is a worldwide thing and it&#8217;s going to become a worldwide phenomenon. I mean it&#8217;s already working on a worldwide level. And it&#8217;s a bunch of people who don&#8217;t know each other, who probably if they were in the same room as each other, wouldn&#8217;t like each other.</p>



<p>I mean there were guys that I dealt with, there was this one guy, Frank, every time there was a DNS problem, I had to call him. I would dread calling him because his first question would be, what did you do now? It wouldn&#8217;t be like, ironically, it would be like, accusatorily, right? If that&#8217;s a word. I hated calling this guy, right? But somehow or another, we knew that we were working on something bigger than all of us, and so we tolerated each other at these various levels.</p>



<p>[00:33:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Can I just inject a couple of my things? Yeah. Is that all right?</p>



<p>[00:33:25] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Yeah, sure. Go ahead. Absolutely.</p>



<p>[00:33:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Because where I was going with this was, at the outset of the internet, I think there was a widespread assumption, and hope, that open things would win. And for a period of time, I think they did. So an example would be, I don&#8217;t know, things like RSS and things like that. Just widespread, open standards, everybody understood. And I think a lot of that has been upended, you know, the social networks came along, and made these utterly beguiling interfaces, which consumed lots of time. I&#8217;ll get onto that as my second point in a moment.</p>



<p>But the standards sort of got, not thrown out the window because they&#8217;re still there and, you know, you can still build on top of them, but they got usurped. More utilitarian things that were more easily understood because you were in this silo worked. And so closed things started to dominate.</p>



<p>I have this notion, I have this hope that we are maybe seeing a little bit of a pushback against that. Obviously you and I are in the WordPress space where those kind of things are incredibly important. So that would be one of my things.</p>



<p>And the other thing, which I think I can say for me, and I think it maps across many people, but I can&#8217;t be certain about that, is the time that can be consumed on the internet, which with the benefit of hindsight could have been better spent doing other things. I think it&#8217;s easy to become, not addicted, but for me to really get lost in the internet.</p>



<p>[00:34:51] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> What you&#8217;re talking about is a natural evolution though, because there&#8217;s no real way to regulate that. That&#8217;s like, you can&#8217;t. How do you regulate that? And I mean that was of course the appeal of all of it back then. Just like blockchain, that&#8217;s the appeal of blockchain is like, how do you regulate it? We knew that eventually people would figure out how to regulate it, even then. Because I remember us having these congressional hearings and things about monopolies and things like that, and all these things that had to do with the internet.</p>



<p>And it was very clear that the people asking questions had no clue what they were asking, because they had no clue what the internet really was other than they used email. They had no clue how far reaching. And so they would try to put standards in that just didn&#8217;t make sense. But we all knew that eventually people would be in those positions that actually grew up with the internet, understood it. And, of course, you can be cynical or whatever, the government is going to figure out a way to regulate everything so they can get their piece of the pie somehow.</p>



<p>And we saw a little bit of that with the regulation of, say, for instance, IP addresses, which back then were a lot harder to come by because there was a big concern about IP address shortages because we were on IP v4 and there was no such thing as what they call network address translation. So like every single website, if you had a web server, every website had its own IP address. If you were at home, you had a static IP address that was assigned to you.</p>



<p>And I remember filling out the forms, which was like a 20 page application, it may not have been 20, but it sure felt like it, application for more IP addresses, more blocks of IP addresses because after, so we had ISDN, which was kind of a big flop, and then we went to the modem standard which was dial up, which was actually, became very highly profitable for us. But then we got into DSL, which was the digital subscriber line concept. And it was cable or DSL. Those were the two high speed or broadband options.</p>



<p>And even when DSL just came out, we had to assign people IP addresses. So it&#8217;d be like, here&#8217;s your DSL modem. We would go out, we would install it in their home. Here&#8217;s your IP address. And with your DSL subscription comes a dial up subscription, so that when you&#8217;re traveling, you can access the internet and you can dial in from your hotel room or whatever.</p>



<p>And I&#8217;d say that the only thing we could have changed maybe was the messaging. Because everything else, and it&#8217;s still a matter of, look, the internet represents freedom. It represents the freedom to do what you want, when you want, how you want. And hopefully you&#8217;re not doing anything illegal. But of course there was a lot of that going on as well. But I don&#8217;t, the whole point of the wild westiness of it is that it was the wild west and you could do whatever you wanted. And people loved that freedom.</p>



<p>And so I don&#8217;t know, you know, my big frustration is I&#8217;d have people call me at two in the morning on my home phone line, because their internet was down and they were going to go on a raid on World of Warcraft or something like that, and they were the raid leader and, by the way, true story. I&#8217;m not making this up. And somehow this guy got my phone number and death threat. I mean, I got a death threat because he couldn&#8217;t go on this raid.</p>



<p>I mean the stories during that time are crazy. And I think it really is just a matter of, I think as always, with everything, messaging is everything, but people are still going to do what they&#8217;re going to do, whether it&#8217;s legal or not. So I&#8217;m not sure that there were any mistakes that were made because it was an evolution. It wasn&#8217;t, there was nothing intentional.</p>



<p>[00:38:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I mean, it&#8217;s a technology which is just flooded with all of humanity. So the idea that it was going to be unicorns and rainbows all the way down was misguided because it was just waiting for humans to come in with all their interesting, fun, curious, illegal, time wasting stuff, and pour all of that into the internet. I am so fascinated about where all of that will go.</p>



<p>The bit that makes me most interested is that I had quite a significant portion of my life when the internet didn&#8217;t exist. And so I had a childhood which was completely inoculated from the internet. And so I have that perspective and so, okay, here&#8217;s the bit where I sound like the curmudgeonly old man and, you know, the youths of today and all of that. And that&#8217;s not really the intention.</p>



<p>But my children&#8217;s generation have never had that. And it&#8217;ll be curious to see how they grow up in a world in which always on was always a thing. From very early age, they had access to technology. The endeavor to acquire information is now more or less trivial. You just log onto something and all of that is available to you. We&#8217;ve got AI coming at a breathtaking pace. It would just be so interesting to see how this goes. And also very interesting to see how my generation cope with its onset because, sure as anything, it doesn&#8217;t look like it&#8217;s going to slow down. And so we are going to have to try and keep up, and hopefully we will, without becoming too curmudgeonly.</p>



<p>[00:39:52] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> My son is going to be 21 this next year, and he hates everything that has to do with technology, which is really fascinating. He&#8217;s in college and outside of college, he works at a Barnes and Noble. He has his girlfriend and they go hiking every single day. He takes a hammock with him and puts it between two trees and lays in his hammock and reads books. And this is not something that I trained him to do.</p>



<p>This was, I mean I appreciate that about him other than he&#8217;s, you know, not nearby so the only way I can contact him is texting and phone calls, but he prefers phone calls to texting. He prefers email to texting because emails, you check your email when you want to, you don&#8217;t get interrupted by the text message notification. And he&#8217;s very, very bright and his whole circle of friends are very, very bright and they&#8217;re not into technology either.</p>



<p>[00:40:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I was just going to say, I&#8217;ve noticed that that seemingly would be a bit of a trend over this side of the pond as well. There does seem to be a groundswell of turning things off or minimalising, tech minimalism, let&#8217;s call it that. So things like vinyl is coming back as a format for consuming music. The phone&#8217;s getting simplified so that there&#8217;s less on there. Apps being deleted because the assumption that it&#8217;s good to have more things coming in and that more connection is a good thing has been sort of pushed to the back.</p>



<p>Actually many of my children&#8217;s generations seem to have now grown weary of that, and they realise that actually that&#8217;s not in their best interest to be engaged all the time, every day. And so that will be a curious pushback. It almost seems like a sort of Hollywood plot that, doesn&#8217;t it?</p>



<p>[00:41:24] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Maybe it&#8217;s just that it&#8217;s so taken for granted now just like a car is or anything else, that they don&#8217;t think of it as anything other than what it is.</p>



<p>[00:41:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So we were sort of caught up, our generation were caught up with this constant cycle of innovation, newness, the shiny thing. And actually for a whole sort of 20 years, there was no let up in that, was there? The internet came along, home computers came along. They got smaller. They became laptops, which you could then take everywhere. Internet and mobile phone networks got switched on. Then the advent of a computer, which you could hold in your hand came along. Social networks came along. All of that completely switched on, connectivity came along. There was a constant churn of evolution and next new thing. Maybe you&#8217;re right.</p>



<p>[00:42:09] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> It&#8217;s like you&#8217;re talking about the television set. In our house growing up, the TV set was something that was kind of always on, and so when we turned it off, it wasn&#8217;t a big deal or we didn&#8217;t feel the need to watch it constantly. We didn&#8217;t need to, I mean let&#8217;s say that you live in a place where, out your front window, you have like this beautiful view. But every single day you see that same exact view, to the point where you can acknowledge that it&#8217;s a beautiful view, but you&#8217;re not as likely to acknowledge it every single day.</p>



<p>I think that that&#8217;s the way that technology has become. And of course, I welcome that because I want our kids to have some of the same experiences that we Gen Xers had, you know, where we had to drink water out of the garden hose because our parents told us to go out the door and not come back until after dark. And I don&#8217;t want to go that extreme but the point is that they have these things at their disposal, and they just know that they&#8217;re there, so they don&#8217;t feel like they have to constantly pursue it.</p>



<p>And I mean, I remember last year when my son was out visiting, I took him to this place called, it&#8217;s called the Medicine Buddha, which is about, it&#8217;s out by Santa Cruz. And it&#8217;s about, I don&#8217;t know how many acres it is, but it&#8217;s redwoods. It&#8217;s nothing but redwoods. And we were out there for about two hours hiking. He&#8217;s like, Dad, why didn&#8217;t you bring me here two days ago? We could have spent the whole weekend here. I mean, it was like, to give you an idea of what it&#8217;s like, it is so quiet there because the trees are so tall that the birds don&#8217;t even come down,</p>



<p>So I think that the pendulum is swinging in the right direction. I do think that youth today has a lot of the right ideas. You know, hopefully our generations haven&#8217;t screwed it up too much for them, that they get to appreciate all of that. But I&#8217;m not as worried about it.</p>



<p>But I will also say that with our kids, we were not super restrictive with the screen time with our kids. And it was always funny, you know, we kind of started it out as an experiment and what we found was that they&#8217;d play on their tablets, or on their computers for an hour or whatever, and then they&#8217;d be like, let&#8217;s go play basketball, or let&#8217;s go play football, or whatever.</p>



<p>And they would just put the things down and they&#8217;d go out and explore on their own. And my kids, it&#8217;s crazy how sometimes hard it is to get a hold of them because, oh, I left my phone at home, sorry Dad. And so I see it going in a good direction. But that&#8217;s the funny thing is like we went from this period, and I know this was supposed to be about the whole evolution of the internet and we kind of, as you and I do, went down.</p>



<p>[00:44:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We segued.</p>



<p>[00:44:37] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> We segued. But there was a time as crazy as it is, that when you wanted to get on the internet, it had to be intentional. You had to deliberately want to get on the internet. So if you went traveling and you had dial up access, you would have to hook up your laptop computer to a modem, unplug the phone line from the hotel phone line, plug it into your computer, and then hope that the dialing worked, right? That you could get an outside line and that it would take you to the internet and that you&#8217;d be able to have a connection. And then it would, nine times out of ten, it would be a long distance number that you had to call because you were in a hotel somewhere else. And now if we go into a hotel that doesn&#8217;t have WiFi, we freak out.</p>



<p>[00:45:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. It&#8217;s like, what&#8217;s going on? This isn&#8217;t normal.</p>



<p>[00:45:25] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Welcome to the 20th century, I mean.</p>



<p>[00:45:27] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I feel like we&#8217;ve grown up in such an interesting time. If you look back and if, like me, you&#8217;re into things like archaeology. Archaeology really does show that for most of humanity, especially if you go pre-history, thousands of years go by and the innovation is very small. You know, there might be one or two little things which built up this growing corpus of things which humanity use.</p>



<p>But it might be that somebody invents a slightly new way of cutting the wheat down, or it might be a new way of building a wall or what have you. And that&#8217;s the pattern of history. Slow, fairly slow, pedestrian until you get to much more recent times, couple of hundred years ago, and things start to pick up speed. And now we&#8217;re at a point where, goodness knows what is going to happen even in the next six months, especially in the realm of AI. We really are at a rate of change, which is very difficult to keep track of.</p>



<p>But it&#8217;s exciting. It&#8217;s a time when everything is up for grabs. It really is exciting. And hopefully we are going to maintain that enthusiasm, maintain that interest. Make sure that, you know, we&#8217;re all safe and well fed and everybody&#8217;s looked after. Let&#8217;s hope those kind of things happen. But what a breathtaking time to live in. What an interesting time we are in.</p>



<p>[00:46:43] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Well, I mean the idea of the internet, and I remember saying this when we started our internet service provider. I said, look, we have an opportunity to level the playing field for businesses. It doesn&#8217;t matter if you&#8217;re small or if you&#8217;re big. On the web, it all looks the same. And I think that that&#8217;s always been kind of one of the drivers for a lot of us, especially in the open source world, is this idea of leveling the playing field between kind of the haves and the have nots, right?</p>



<p>So we have the same access to knowledge that people with means might have. We have the same access to products. We have all the same accesses. So in many ways, from a consumption level, I&#8217;m talking about consuming knowledge as well as products, but from a consumption level, we have a level playing field. From the other side of things, it&#8217;s not as level as it used to be.</p>



<p>A Walmart or an Amazon obviously is going to show up in every search for everything, as opposed to back in the day, all you really had to do was just put in a few keywords and somehow or another you&#8217;d show up on Yahoo or AltaVista or Ask Jeeves or whatever it was at the time, you know, before Google came along. And then Google came along and the same thing was still true for a while, where you could like do just minimal amounts of SEO and get attention to your website and get business.</p>



<p>So the idea and I think the mission of the internet kind of should always be to keep the playing field level. I just don&#8217;t know that that&#8217;s necessarily possible because obviously the people who have the power and the money are going to be able to tilt things in their direction. But having said that, it is still the greatest opportunity for us to level the playing field of anything out there.</p>



<p>[00:48:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, that&#8217;s such a good way, I think we should probably end it on that, because that&#8217;s such a nice and optimistic note actually, in many ways.</p>



<p>We began this conversation not really knowing where we were going to end up, and that has proved to be the case. We really did go in all sorts of different directions there, but absolutely fascinating.</p>



<p>You know, we revealed a lot about our own past and our sort of heuristics and intuitions about how it&#8217;s going to be for our children&#8217;s generation, and what we&#8217;ve enjoyed and what we think might be of concern in the future. That was absolutely fascinating. Marc Benzakein, where can we find you online, 24/7?</p>



<p>[00:49:05] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> You can find me online, not 24/7, I actually do try to take some time off of technology. But I am with MainWP. I do their marketing and partnerships, for MainWP, which is a fantastic WordPress management dashboard. That&#8217;s my plug. And you can also find me on LinkedIn. You can find me on Twitter, Marc Benzakein. I&#8217;m pretty sure I&#8217;m the only Marc Benzakein out there. I&#8217;m marcbenzak Twitter and Bluesky and those things. And then you can find me on Facebook and I&#8217;m just kind of generally all over the place.</p>



<p>[00:49:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I will endeavor to find those links and I&#8217;ll drop them into the show notes. So if you go to wptavern.com and search for, well, I suspect if you just search for Marc&#8217;s first name, which is Marc with a C, M-A-R-C. If you search for that, you&#8217;ll probably come up in the search. But Benzakein, B-E-N-Z, as we say in the UK, A-K-E-I-N. Marc Benzakein, thank you so much for a really interesting chat today. I appreciate that.</p>



<p>[00:50:03] <strong>Marc Benzakein:</strong> Thanks for having me, Nathan. Appreciate it.</p>
</div></details>



<p>On the podcast today we have <a href="https://x.com/MarcBenzak">Marc Benzakein</a>.</p>



<p>Marc’s story is one that spans nearly the entire history of the Internet. With roots reaching back to the mid-90s. He explores how curiosity and an enthusiastic embrace of technology led him from running a small coffee importing business, accepting payments by snail mail, fax, then email, to helping wire up schools for Internet access when modems worked incredibly slowly, and only a handful of people were online.</p>



<p>This episode is a departure from our usual topics about plugins, themes, and WordPress community news. Instead, we’re more in the business of reminiscing this week. Taking a reflective walk down memory lane to look at how the Internet has evolved, not just as a technology, but as an integral part of society that’s transformed how we work, communicate, and think.</p>



<p>Marc shares some personal stories, building bulletin board systems, forging long-distance friendships over phone lines and slow modems, and watching as Internet access shifted from an intentional, difficult-to-navigate hobby for the few, to an invisible, always-on utility that we all take for granted.</p>



<p>We talk about how technology has affected not only business and productivity (often creating more work instead of less), but also our attention spans, expectations around entertainment, the pace of life, and even the social fabric that binds us together. We discuss the cultural shifts that came with always-connected living, digital minimalism, and the recent push by younger generations to step back from tech and reclaim a bit of analog life.</p>



<p>We chat about the early optimism of open standards, the rise of walled gardens and social networks, and the challenges of regulation, commercialisation, and the balancing act between freedom and responsibility online.</p>



<p>Marc’s perspective is shaped by decades of direct technical experience, as well as thoughtful observations of how technology is reshaping the world around us, sometimes for the better, sometimes in ways we need to pause and question.</p>



<p>Whether you’re nostalgic for the old days of dial-up, intrigued by how the Internet’s culture has shifted, or curious about how these transformations might play out as new technologies like AI reshape society, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p><a href="https://mainwp.com">MainWP</a></p>



<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL">AOL</a></p>



<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prodigy_(online_service)"> Prodigy</a></p>



<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gopher_(protocol)"> Gopher</a></p>



<p><a href="https://wptavern.com/serverpress-is-shutting-down">ServerPress Is Shutting Down</a></p>



<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LANtastic">LANtastic</a></p>



<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novell">Novell</a></p>



<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulletin_board_system">BBS (Bulletin board system)</a></p>



<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWIV">WWIV</a></p>



<p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_radio">Ham radio</a></p>



<p><a href="https://x.com/MarcBenzak">Marc on X</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/marc-benzakein/">Marc on LinkedIn</a></p>



<p><a href="https://bsky.app/profile/marcbenzak.bsky.social">Marc on Bluesky</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 21 Jan 2026 15:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:5;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:49:"WordPress.org blog: Be Part of WordCamp Asia 2026";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=19738";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:54:"https://wordpress.org/news/2026/01/wordcamp-asia-2026/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:16192:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordCamp Asia is back in 2026, this time in Mumbai, India, and it’s building on a year that showed just how ambitious and connected the WordPress community has become. Now is the time to get involved. Get your ticket, explore sponsorship opportunities, and help spread the word.</p>



<div class="wp-block-buttons is-content-justification-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-buttons-is-layout-c124d1c4 wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex">
<div class="wp-block-button"><a class="wp-block-button__link has-background wp-element-button" href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2026/event-pass/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">Get Your Event Pass</a></div>



<div class="wp-block-button"><a class="wp-block-button__link has-background wp-element-button" href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2026/call-for-sponsors/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">Become a Sponsor</a></div>



<div class="wp-block-button"><a class="wp-block-button__link has-background wp-element-button" href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2026/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">About WordCamp Asia</a></div>
</div>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In 2025, more than 1,400 attendees from 71 countries gathered in person, with nearly 15,000 more joining online for <a href="https://wordpress.org/news/2025/02/shaping-tomorrow-at-wordcamp-asia-2025/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">WordCamp Asia 2025</a>. With notable guests like WordPress <span style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;">Co-founder <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/matt/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">Matt Mullenweg</a> and Gutenberg Lead Architect <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/matveb/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">Matías Ventura</a>, and</span> a diverse lineup of speakers and panelists from across the ecosystem, WordCamp Asia 2025 brought together a community actively shaping the future of the open web.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s the people. It&#8217;s the friendships and the stories.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>Matt Mullenweg, WordPress Cofounder</em></p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordCamp isn’t just about sessions and schedules. It’s about connection. It’s about learning directly from people who are building, scaling, and sustaining WordPress in the real world. It’s about sharing ideas, debating the future of the open web, and leaving with renewed energy for the work ahead. And in 2026, that spirit returns stronger than ever.</p>



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<figure class="wp-block-image size-large has-custom-border wp-lightbox-container"><img alt="" class="wp-image-18527" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2025/02/20250220-DSC_1989.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&#038;ssl=1" style="border-radius: 2px;" width="1024" /><button class="lightbox-trigger" type="button">
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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Tickets for WordCamp Asia 2026 are on sale now, and this is the moment to secure your spot. WordCamps are intentionally priced to remain accessible, and early ticket sales help organizers plan an inclusive, high-quality experience for everyone.</p>



<div class="wp-block-cover wp-elements-0b95616698be07100358c612d6a7c795"><img alt="" class="wp-block-cover__image-background wp-image-19746 size-large" height="455" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/wca-hero-purple.webp?resize=1024%2C455&#038;ssl=1" width="1024" /><span class="wp-block-cover__background has-background-dim-0 has-background-dim"></span><div class="wp-block-cover__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-cover-is-layout-063a8677 wp-block-cover-is-layout-constrained">
<p class="has-text-align-center has-luminous-vivid-amber-color has-text-color has-link-color has-eb-garamond-font-family has-huge-font-size wp-elements-fc6f7f5274402af690db6c3dfeb817bc wp-block-paragraph" style="margin-top: 0; margin-bottom: 0;"><strong>Join 3,000+ Web Professionals</strong></p>



<p class="has-text-align-center wp-block-paragraph">April 9 – 11, 2026 | Jio World Convention Centre, Mumbai, India</p>



<div class="wp-block-buttons is-content-justification-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-buttons-is-layout-a89b3969 wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex">
<div class="wp-block-button"><a class="wp-block-button__link has-vivid-red-background-color has-background has-eb-garamond-font-family has-large-font-size has-custom-font-size wp-element-button" href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2026/event-pass/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank"><strong>Get Your Event Pass</strong></a></div>
</div>
</div></div>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordCamp Asia is also made possible by the organizations that step up to support it. Sponsorship plays a critical role in keeping the event accessible, supporting contributors and volunteers, and ensuring the experience reflects the values of the WordPress project. For sponsors, WordCamp Asia 2026 offers a rare opportunity to connect with a highly engaged, global audience in a setting built on trust, collaboration, and shared purpose.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Sponsorship packages are designed to support a wide range of organizations, from local companies to global businesses building products and services on WordPress. Beyond visibility, sponsors become part of the story—helping sustain the ecosystem and invest directly in the community that makes WordPress possible.</p>



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<p class="has-text-align-center has-white-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-ba159f72435edac28651a9149c455a8c wp-block-paragraph">If your company is interested in becoming a sponsor or you would like to know more, please reach out.</p>



<div class="wp-block-buttons is-content-justification-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-buttons-is-layout-a89b3969 wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex">
<div class="wp-block-button"><a class="wp-block-button__link has-vivid-red-background-color has-background has-eb-garamond-font-family has-large-font-size has-custom-font-size wp-element-button" href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2026/call-for-sponsors/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank"><strong>Become a Sponsor</strong></a></div>
</div>
</div>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">At every level, WordCamp Asia is powered by people. Organizers, volunteers, speakers, sponsors, and attendees all contribute to an experience that reflects WordPress’s shared values of openness and collaboration. It’s a place where new voices are welcomed, long-time contributors reconnect, and ideas move from conversation to action.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordCamp Asia 2026 is more than an event—it’s a moment to come together, reflect on where we are, and help shape what comes next. Whether you’re attending for the first time, returning for another year, or supporting the event as a sponsor, your involvement helps strengthen the WordPress ecosystem and the global community behind it.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">We’ll see you in Mumbai.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 21 Jan 2026 12:07:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:17:"Nicholas Garofalo";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:6;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:49:"Open Channels FM: Open Channels FM v7.0 Changelog";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114485";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:56:"https://openchannels.fm/open-channels-fm-v7-0-changelog/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:141:"Our v.7.0 changelog highlights Open Channels FM structure, including new channels, a podcast revival, updated features, and plugin additions.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 21 Jan 2026 09:39:42 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:7;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:25:"Matt: Cancer Founder Mode";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151128";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:42:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/cancer-founder-mode/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1593:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Sid Sijbrandi, a friend and a former CEO of <a href="https://about.gitlab.com/" target="_blank">Gitlab</a>, has <a href="https://x.com/sytses/status/2013441820630643136">started to share some of the story</a> of his journey with cancer.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Manager mode assumes that existing systems will surface the best options. When I was first diagnosed with cancer in 2022, I delegated the crucial analyses and decisions about my care to others. In late 2024, when my cancer reappeared and my doctors told me I had exhausted the standard of care and there were no trials for my situation, I realized that assumption might, quite literally, kill me. Founder Mode was my only option.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Founder Mode meant going deep on every diagnostic and treatment option. It meant assembling a team of physicians and scientists to work from first principles to understand what was possible beyond standard protocols. Together, we paved new roads to access the very cutting edge of science and technology. Today, thanks to the efforts of many people around the world and the support of my wife Karen, I currently have no evidence of disease.</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Sid was already very inspiring before this journey, and this is especially impressive. <a href="https://centuryofbio.com/p/sid">Elliot Hershberg has the full story and analysis</a>, including some predictions for the future of cancer treatment.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 21 Jan 2026 06:14:30 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:8;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:63:"WordPress.org blog: A New Home for WordPress Education Programs";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=19636";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:73:"https://wordpress.org/news/2026/01/wordpress-education-programs-new-home/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:8775:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Over the past few weeks, a new space has taken shape on WordPress.org for students who want to learn, build, and contribute. <a href="https://wordpress.org/education/">WordPress Education programs</a> bring together initiatives that help students enter the WordPress ecosystem through clear, accessible entry points that lead to real-world practice.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">With hands-on initiatives and supportive communities, participants can grow new skills and take their first steps as contributors. Across campuses and communities worldwide, learners publish real projects, build practical experience, and gain confidence as part of open source creation.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img alt="" class="wp-image-19638" height="683" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/8467ac53c5cd33b1.95580622-scaled-2.jpg?resize=1024%2C683&#038;ssl=1" width="1024" /><figcaption class="wp-element-caption"><em><a href="https://creativecommons.org/publicdomain/zero/1.0/">CC0</a> licensed <a href="https://wordpress.org/photos/photo/8467ac53c5/">photo</a> by <a href="https://wordpress.org/photos/author/whyviru/">Virendra Kumar Yadav</a> from the <a href="https://wordpress.org/photos/">WordPress Photo Directory</a>.</em></figcaption></figure>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">A clearer path into the WordPress ecosystem</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordPress Education is designed to help students turn knowledge into practice, discover their strengths, and understand how their contributions can make a real impact through three core programs: WordPress Campus Connect, WordPress Credits, and WordPress Student Clubs.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Through hands-on campus events, such as WordPress Campus Connect, on-campus groups like WordPress Student Clubs, and a practice-based program called WordPress Credits, participants can gain practical experience, publish real-world projects, and build confidence as contributors to a global culture of open-source creation.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">At its heart, these WordPress education programs are about three simple ideas:</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Learn. Build. Connect.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This update brings WordPress education programs together in one place, with an easy way to explore initiatives, understand how they work, and take the next step.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">You will find:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>A home for WordPress Education programs and updates</li>



<li>Clear “how to get involved” paths for students, educators, mentors, organizers, and sponsors</li>



<li>Stories, highlights, and examples of real projects created through the programs</li>



<li>Links to the Education Handbook for program guidelines and resources</li>
</ul>



<div class="wp-block-group has-off-white-2-background-color has-background is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-d1b48064 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p class="has-text-align-center wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Want to learn more about WordPress education opportunities?</strong></p>



<div class="wp-block-buttons is-content-justification-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-buttons-is-layout-a89b3969 wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex">
<div class="wp-block-button"><a class="wp-block-button__link wp-element-button" href="https://wordpress.org/education/">Visit The Portal</a></div>
</div>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em><em>You can also view more information from the <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/community/handbook/education/">WordPress Community Education Programs Handbook</a>. Learn how this serves as a central guide and resource for all community-driven educational initiatives.</em></em></p>
</div>



<div class="wp-block-columns is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-28f84493 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex">
<div class="wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-left">WordPress <br />Campus Connect</h4>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordPress Campus Connect is a growing global learning initiative that brings hands-on WordPress learning directly to the students on their campus.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The organizers can come from within educational institutions or from the local communities to help deliver WordPress programming and create the future stewards of WordPress.<br /><br />Learn more: <a href="https://wordpress.org/education/campus-connect/">https://wordpress.org/education/campus-connect/</a><br /></p>
</div>



<div class="wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-left">WordPress <br />Credits</h4>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordPress Credits is a contribution-based program by the WordPress Foundation that connects higher education students with the global WordPress community.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Educational institutions partner with the WordPress Foundation to offer students credits toward their degrees for contributing 150 hours to the WordPress project.<br /><br />Learn more: <a href="https://wordpress.org/education/credits/">https://wordpress.org/education/credits/</a></p>
</div>



<div class="wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<h4 class="wp-block-heading has-text-align-left">WordPress <br />Student Clubs</h4>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordPress Student Clubs empower students to build on-campus WordPress communities that keep learning going throughout the year.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In the spirit of our local community meetups, these groups operate as on-campus equivalents, keeping students engaged and connected with their local WordPress communities.<br /><br />Learn more: <a href="https://wordpress.org/education/student-clubs/">https://wordpress.org/education/student-clubs/</a></p>
</div>
</div>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Support This Growing Movement</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Help spread the word, and let friends, students, and others know how they can contribute to this growing effort, including a widely expanding translation effort. WordPress Education has already been translated into 10 new languages. WordPress Education is powered by people who believe in open learning and the power of collaboration.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"></p>



<div class="wp-block-jetpack-tiled-gallery aligncenter has-darker-grey-background-color has-background is-style-rectangular" style="margin-top: 0; margin-right: 0; margin-bottom: 0; margin-left: 0; padding-top: 0; padding-right: 0; padding-bottom: 0; padding-left: 0;"><div class=""><div class="tiled-gallery__gallery"><div class="tiled-gallery__row"><div class="tiled-gallery__col"><figure class="tiled-gallery__item"><img alt="" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/alumnos-tabajando-Campus-Connect-Catarroja-scaled-1.webp?ssl=1" /></figure><figure class="tiled-gallery__item"><img alt="" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/Campus-Connect-Catarroja-7-scaled-1.webp?ssl=1" /></figure></div><div class="tiled-gallery__col"><figure class="tiled-gallery__item"><img alt="" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/Campus-Connect-Catarroja-25-3-scaled-1-768x1024.webp?ssl=1" /></figure></div></div><div class="tiled-gallery__row"><div class="tiled-gallery__col"><figure class="tiled-gallery__item"><img alt="" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/9168ab66690a1aa4.23083692-1024x576.jpg?ssl=1" /></figure></div><div class="tiled-gallery__col"><figure class="tiled-gallery__item"><img alt="" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/Campus-Connect-Catarroja-25.webp?ssl=1" /></figure></div></div><div class="tiled-gallery__row"><div class="tiled-gallery__col"><figure class="tiled-gallery__item"><img alt="" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/Patri-alumnos-Campus-Connect-Catarroja-25-scaled-1.webp?ssl=1" /></figure></div><div class="tiled-gallery__col"><figure class="tiled-gallery__item"><img alt="" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/WPCC-University-of-Brahmanbaria-1-scaled-1-1024x547.jpg?ssl=1" /></figure><figure class="tiled-gallery__item"><img alt="" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/WPCC-Zamboanga-1-scaled-1-1024x768.jpg?ssl=1" /></figure></div></div><div class="tiled-gallery__row"><div class="tiled-gallery__col"><figure class="tiled-gallery__item"><img alt="" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/WPCreditsMentorsAtWCPISA2025-1-scaled-1-1024x683.jpg?ssl=1" /></figure></div></div></div></div></div>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 20 Jan 2026 17:14:55 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Brett McSherry";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:9;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:47:"Open Channels FM: Open Channels FM v7.0 Release";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114441";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:54:"https://openchannels.fm/open-channels-fm-v7-0-release/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:219:"In this episode, BobWP announces the release of Open Channels FM version 7.0, detailing significant updates, rebranding changes, new hosting voices, and improved sponsorship strategies for a revamped podcast experience.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 20 Jan 2026 09:57:04 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:10;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:59:"Weston Ruter: Post Date Block: Published &amp;amp; Modified";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://weston.ruter.net/?p=38580";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:71:"https://weston.ruter.net/2026/01/19/post-date-block-published-modified/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:22580:"<p>I&#8217;ve had an itch I&#8217;ve wanted to scratch for a while. A year ago, I re-developed my blog here to use the Twenty Twenty-Five block theme replacing the Twenty Twenty classic theme. Something I wanted to do was show a post&#8217;s published date followed by the modified date if it differed. For example, for WCUS 2024 I published <a href="https://weston.ruter.net/2024/09/12/my-portland-picks/">My Portland Picks</a> to share my favorite things to do in the city. Since WCUS 2025 was also in Portland last year, I updated the post with my latest picks. To make it clear it had been changed, I manually added a “Post updated for 2025” paragraph at the beginning of the post. But I wanted to avoid having to keep doing this for such evergreen content.</p>



<p>There are two blocks listed in the block inserter for dates: <a href="https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/post-date-block/">Date</a> and <a href="https://wordpress.org/documentation/article/post-modified-date-block/">Modified Date</a>. (Previously these block names started with “Post” but these were <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/53492">removed</a> in WordPress 6.4.) In reality, these two blocks are just variations of the one Date block. You could turn a Date block into a Modified Date block by enabling this block setting:</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large has-custom-border wp-lightbox-container"><img alt="Display last modified date toggle.

Only shows if the post has been modified." class="wp-image-38581 not-transparent" height="225" src="https://i0.wp.com/weston.ruter.net/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/display-last-modified-date.png?resize=700%2C225&#038;ssl=1" width="700" /><button class="lightbox-trigger" type="button">
			<svg fill="none" height="12" viewBox="0 0 12 12" width="12" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
				<path d="M2 0a2 2 0 0 0-2 2v2h1.5V2a.5.5 0 0 1 .5-.5h2V0H2Zm2 10.5H2a.5.5 0 0 1-.5-.5V8H0v2a2 2 0 0 0 2 2h2v-1.5ZM8 12v-1.5h2a.5.5 0 0 0 .5-.5V8H12v2a2 2 0 0 1-2 2H8Zm2-12a2 2 0 0 1 2 2v2h-1.5V2a.5.5 0 0 0-.5-.5H8V0h2Z" fill="#fff">
			</svg>
		</button></figure>



<p>With block bindings in WordPress 6.9, the Date block became <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/70585">further abstracted</a> to be able to represent any date, not just a post&#8217;s publish date or modified date. When a Date block is inserted, you can now decide to bind the block to either of these dates:</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large has-custom-border wp-lightbox-container"><img alt="Date block settings, with the transform to variation menu opened showing the Post Date and Modified Date as options. Instead of displaying a custom date, the variations allow showing the post's publish date or the post's last updated date." class="wp-image-38582 not-transparent" height="700" src="https://i0.wp.com/weston.ruter.net/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/date-block-variations.png?resize=621%2C700&#038;ssl=1" width="621" /><button class="lightbox-trigger" type="button">
			<svg fill="none" height="12" viewBox="0 0 12 12" width="12" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
				<path d="M2 0a2 2 0 0 0-2 2v2h1.5V2a.5.5 0 0 1 .5-.5h2V0H2Zm2 10.5H2a.5.5 0 0 1-.5-.5V8H0v2a2 2 0 0 0 2 2h2v-1.5ZM8 12v-1.5h2a.5.5 0 0 0 .5-.5V8H12v2a2 2 0 0 1-2 2H8Zm2-12a2 2 0 0 1 2 2v2h-1.5V2a.5.5 0 0 0-.5-.5H8V0h2Z" fill="#fff">
			</svg>
		</button></figure>



<p>The key word there is “either”. The setting I was looking for was missing: the ability to display the publish date <em>and</em> the modified date (if it differs).</p>



<p>I did find Gutenberg issue <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/53099">#53099</a> opened by Carolina Nymark where she was reporting that it was confusing that the old “display modified date” toggle actually causes the modified date to be displayed instead of the publish date:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>The info I was looking for was whether, when toggled on, it would display both the published and modified dates, or display the modified date instead of the published date, as from the settings alone it’s not immediately clear</p>
</blockquote>



<p>Commenting on that issue, Ronnie Burt <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/53099#issuecomment-2855553546">said</a>:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>Feedback after using this block on multiple sites in templates for both posts and pages. The &#8216;modified date&#8217; block doesn&#8217;t show anything if the post has never been updated. This makes it really challenging to use, as there will be a blank spot on the front end for new posts or pages without any edits.</p>



<p>It would be more useful to show the date published if the post has no edits.</p>
</blockquote>



<p>Carolina <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/53099#issuecomment-2856811501">responded</a>:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>The problem is that there is no one scenario that will work for <strong>all</strong> use cases. Some users and designs wants to display both the original publishing date and the modified date. So no matter how this block is updated, it will break for <strong>someone</strong>.</p>



<p>Your best option may be to register a block binding with a callback function that displays the post date, to get the exact conditions that <strong>you</strong> need, and then insert a paragraph with this block binding, instead of using the post date block.</p>
</blockquote>



<p>A few months later, when I discovered the issue, I <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/53099#issuecomment-3194738185">commented</a>:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>To me it seems like the block should facilitate showing the published date and then also show the modified date <em>if</em> it is different, with a prefix like &#8220;Updated: &#8221; or some other parenthetical treatment. I don&#8217;t think the modified date should ever take over the published date. I&#8217;m not sure the best way to achieve that other than by adding a plugin which filters the Date block to append the desired content. I&#8217;m not sure how that could be handled in the UI, given we&#8217;re dealing with inline content and there is no ability to hide blocks (cf. <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/50756">#50756</a>), and there&#8217;d have to be a condition like &#8220;Only show this block if the rendered date/time of the published date is not the same as the rendered date/time of the modified date.&#8221;</p>
</blockquote>



<p>So this is what I wanted, but the Date block didn&#8217;t support it. So I started exploring something that would implement my desired use case.</p>



<p>Accounting for all the different scenarios adds complexity to the block. Rendering a single publish date or modified date is simple enough. But if the modified date needs to be displayed <em>conditionally</em> then how is this configured in the editor? Namely, if both dates are displayed, then one or both of the dates would need to have some prefix indicating what the date refers to. The two configurations I had in mind were prefixing the modified date only:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>December 25, 2025 (Modified: January 1, 2026)</p>
</blockquote>



<p>Or else putting each on a separate line and having prefixes for each:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>Published: December 25, 2025<br />Modified: January 1, 2026</p>
</blockquote>



<p>There is an existing Gutenberg issue <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/61920">#61920</a> which is about adding prefixes and suffixes to the block similarly to the <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/40559">Categories block</a>. But these prefixes are unconditional for only a single date. I wanted these prefixes added conditionally for when the modified date is displayed in addition to the published date.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">A New Plugin</h2>



<p>Ultimately, I put together a plugin to implement what I wanted: <a href="https://github.com/westonruter/post-date-modified"><strong>Post Date Block: Published &amp; Modified</strong></a>. It&#8217;s currently on GitHub but I&#8217;ve also submitted it to the WordPress.org directory. </p>



<figure class="wp-block-image aligncenter size-large is-resized"><a href="https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https%3A%2F%2Fraw.githubusercontent.com%2Fwestonruter%2Fpost-date-modified%2Fmain%2F.wordpress-org%2Fblueprint%2Fblueprint.json" rel=" noreferrer noopener" target="_blank"><img alt="Try it in Playground" class="wp-image-38587" height="104" src="https://weston.ruter.net/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/playground-preview-button.svg" style="width: 235px; height: auto;" width="447" /></a></figure>



<p><em><strong>Update:</strong> It&#8217;s now live on plugin directory!</em></p>



<figure class="wp-block-embed is-type-wp-embed is-provider-plugin-directory wp-block-embed-plugin-directory"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">
<blockquote class="wp-embedded-content"><a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/post-date-modified/">Post Date Block: Published &amp; Modified</a></blockquote>
</div></figure>



<p>Once active, when you are editing the settings for the Date block for the Post Date variation, a new “With Modified Date” panel appears. Inside that panel there is a new toggle:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p>Show modified date when different from published date</p>
</blockquote>



<p>The two dates are rendered in the supplied date format, and only if they then differ will the modified date be displayed after the published date. This prevents the modified date from appearing as a duplicate when the post is updated on the same day it was published.</p>



<p>When that toggle is enabled, two new sets of fields are presented for adding a prefix and suffix to both the published date and the modified date. There is also a toggle for whether the modified date should be displayed on a separate line. Here are the settings for the two configurations I mentioned previously, one where the modified date is displayed on a separate line and another where it is displayed on the same line:</p>



<div class="wp-block-columns is-not-stacked-on-mobile is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-28f84493 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex">
<div class="wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<figure class="wp-block-image aligncenter size-large wp-lightbox-container"><img alt="Settings for the Post Date block where the modified date is shown when it is different than the published date. The modified date is displayed on a separate line after the published date. Both the published date and modified date have &quot;Published&quot; and &quot;Modified&quot; prefixes." class="wp-image-38585 not-transparent" height="700" src="https://i0.wp.com/weston.ruter.net/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/post-date-modified-two-lines.png?resize=254%2C700&#038;ssl=1" width="254" /><button class="lightbox-trigger" type="button">
			<svg fill="none" height="12" viewBox="0 0 12 12" width="12" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
				<path d="M2 0a2 2 0 0 0-2 2v2h1.5V2a.5.5 0 0 1 .5-.5h2V0H2Zm2 10.5H2a.5.5 0 0 1-.5-.5V8H0v2a2 2 0 0 0 2 2h2v-1.5ZM8 12v-1.5h2a.5.5 0 0 0 .5-.5V8H12v2a2 2 0 0 1-2 2H8Zm2-12a2 2 0 0 1 2 2v2h-1.5V2a.5.5 0 0 0-.5-.5H8V0h2Z" fill="#fff">
			</svg>
		</button></figure>
</div>



<div class="wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<figure class="wp-block-image aligncenter size-large has-custom-border wp-lightbox-container"><img alt="Settings for the Post Date block where the modified date is shown when it is different than the published date. The modified date is displayed on the same line after the published date, and only modified date has a prefix and a suffix to give it a parenthetical rendering." class="wp-image-38584 not-transparent" height="700" src="https://i0.wp.com/weston.ruter.net/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/post-date-modified-one-line.png?resize=255%2C700&#038;ssl=1" width="255" /><button class="lightbox-trigger" type="button">
			<svg fill="none" height="12" viewBox="0 0 12 12" width="12" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/2000/svg">
				<path d="M2 0a2 2 0 0 0-2 2v2h1.5V2a.5.5 0 0 1 .5-.5h2V0H2Zm2 10.5H2a.5.5 0 0 1-.5-.5V8H0v2a2 2 0 0 0 2 2h2v-1.5ZM8 12v-1.5h2a.5.5 0 0 0 .5-.5V8H12v2a2 2 0 0 1-2 2H8Zm2-12a2 2 0 0 1 2 2v2h-1.5V2a.5.5 0 0 0-.5-.5H8V0h2Z" fill="#fff">
			</svg>
		</button></figure>
</div>
</div>



<p>In terms of the frontend rendering, here&#8217;s what the Date markup looks like right after publishing on Christmas:</p>


<pre class="wp-block-code"><span><code class="hljs language-xml"><span class="hljs-tag">&lt;<span class="hljs-name">div</span> <span class="hljs-attr">class</span>=<span class="hljs-string">"wp-block-post-date"</span>&gt;</span>
	<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;<span class="hljs-name">time</span> <span class="hljs-attr">datetime</span>=<span class="hljs-string">"2025-12-25T18:14:21-08:00"</span>&gt;</span>
		December 25, 2025
	<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;/<span class="hljs-name">time</span>&gt;</span>
<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;/<span class="hljs-name">div</span>&gt;</span></code></span></pre>


<p>And here is how the block is rendered after having been modified on New Year&#8217;s Day, in the two-line configuration:</p>


<pre class="wp-block-code"><span><code class="hljs language-xml"><span class="hljs-tag">&lt;<span class="hljs-name">div</span> <span class="hljs-attr">class</span>=<span class="hljs-string">"wp-block-post-date post-date-modified"</span>&gt;</span>
	Published:
	<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;<span class="hljs-name">time</span> <span class="hljs-attr">class</span>=<span class="hljs-string">"entry-date published"</span> <span class="hljs-attr">datetime</span>=<span class="hljs-string">"2025-12-25T18:14:21-08:00"</span>&gt;</span>
		December 25, 2025
	<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;/<span class="hljs-name">time</span>&gt;</span>
	<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;<span class="hljs-name">br</span>&gt;</span>
	<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;<span class="hljs-name">span</span> <span class="hljs-attr">class</span>=<span class="hljs-string">"modified"</span>&gt;</span>
		Modified:
		<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;<span class="hljs-name">time</span> <span class="hljs-attr">class</span>=<span class="hljs-string">"updated"</span> <span class="hljs-attr">datetime</span>=<span class="hljs-string">"2026-01-01T21:20:05-08:00"</span>&gt;</span>
			January 1, 2026
		<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;/<span class="hljs-name">time</span>&gt;</span>
	<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;/<span class="hljs-name">span</span>&gt;</span>
<span class="hljs-tag">&lt;/<span class="hljs-name">div</span>&gt;</span></code></span></pre>


<p>Note the added microformat classes to disambiguate the published date from the modified date. I was really happy to be able to leverage the <a href="https://developer.wordpress.org/reference/classes/wp_html_tag_processor/">HTML Tag Processor</a> to handle insertion of the prefixes, suffixes, newline, and class names!</p>



<p>This plugin solves my use case, but it&#8217;s primarily a prototype/stopgap until something lands in core. The user experience for this doesn&#8217;t feel ideal, but I can&#8217;t think of a better option at the moment. Note also that there is currently no preview in the editor, so you have to save the changes and go to the frontend to see the results. (My <a href="https://weston.ruter.net/2014/09/27/wcsyd-talk-customize-all-the-things/">Customizer self</a> weeps.) I didn&#8217;t want to fork the Date block&#8217;s edit function to implement full preview in the editor, and it would be of little value anyway since when editing a block template the Date block now just shows ”Invalid date” anyway due to there being no post context for the block binding.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">The Future</h2>



<p>The ideal solution perhaps would <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/pull/61920#issuecomment-2156095190">involve Bits</a> (now <a href="https://github.com/WordPress/gutenberg/issues/73929">Shortblocks</a>). Maybe the default view for a Post Date block when editing a block template would be to show the view when the modified date is the same as the published date. But then there could potentially be a popover that could allow configuring how the block should render when the modified date is different. With Shortblocks, these tokens could be inserted inline with the content and moved around inside of a paragraph block. This would avoid the need to supply a suffix/prefix in the detached block settings sidebar.</p>



<p>In the meantime, I hope my plugin is helpful for keeping your readers updated!</p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity" />



<p class="has-medium-font-size">Where I&#8217;ve posted about this:</p>



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<p></p>
<p>The post <a href="https://weston.ruter.net/2026/01/19/post-date-block-published-modified/">Post Date Block: Published &amp; Modified</a> appeared first on <a href="https://weston.ruter.net">Weston Ruter</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 20 Jan 2026 05:45:15 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:12:"Weston Ruter";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:11;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:18:"Matt: AI Psychosis";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151118";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/ai-psychosis/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1531:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One of the most concerning trends I&#8217;ve seen is that, as people adopt AI, it captures those for whom it was designed. That previous sentence went through several revisions at various layers of intelligence&#8230; the spell-checker, grammar-checker, Grammarly, <a href="https://writewithharper.com/">Harper</a>, maybe more, all attacking the words that spill from my divine intelligence and then interact with yours.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Anthropic has published a really interesting essay and paper, <a href="https://www.anthropic.com/research/assistant-axis">The assistant axis: situating and stabilizing the character of large language models</a>. You need infoguards to protect your mind.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://blog.samaltman.com/">Sam Altman</a> was <a href="https://x.com/sama/status/1716972815960961174">prescient in 2023 when he said</a>,</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">i expect ai to be capable of superhuman persuasion well before it is superhuman at general intelligence, which may lead to some very strange outcomes</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Some very smart and talented friends are going down rabbit holes that don&#8217;t have good ends. My world is small; when you extrapolate this out to the 800M+ MAUs of ChatGPT, there&#8217;s probably a lot of weird stuff happening out there. We live in the most interesting times.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 20 Jan 2026 04:26:33 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:12;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:55:"Open Channels FM: Thoughts From the Brain, Not a Prompt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114414";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:61:"https://openchannels.fm/thoughts-from-the-brain-not-a-prompt/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:50:"BobWP kicks off his posts with Creator Meanderings";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 19 Jan 2026 11:21:42 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:13;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Matt: Bob Weir";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151110";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/bob-weir/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:372:"<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">They say that blood is thicker than water, and what we had was way thicker than blood.</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Bob Weir on Jerry Garcia. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIe1jMbyhgw">John Mayer gave Bob a great eulogy</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 19 Jan 2026 06:51:34 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:14;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:22:"Matt: Bacon Egg Cheese";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151102";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:39:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/bacon-egg-cheese/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:2072:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One of my favorite travel hacks is finding the Neapolitan pizza oven in the airport, as there’s nothing quite like a fresh pizza sizzling on your plate.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">At Houston Intercontinental, which I know like the back of my hand, there was a divine experience at the C Gate nexus at <a href="https://www.otgexp.com/experience_locations/george-bush-intercontinental-airport/">Forno Magico</a>, especially in the morning, when they offer a bacon, egg, and cheese pizza that I would beeline for whenever I had a morning flight. It’s big enough to feed two.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That said, I am disappointed to report that Forno Magico is no longer magical. They stopped salting the oven floor or rotating the pie, and the eggs were sloppily bunched. The dough was dry; it was like they’d never had a good pizza. They’re only heating the oven to 498, not the 905 <a href="https://www.pizzanapoletana.org/en/ricetta_pizza_napoletana">recommended by the Associazione Verace Pizza Napoletana</a>. It was edible but not a delight, as you can see here.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img alt="" class="wp-image-151103" height="465" src="https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2026/01/IMG_1386-1024x789.jpeg?resize=604%2C465&#038;quality=89&#038;ssl=1" width="604" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I hope they rediscover the art of firing pizzas they started with. They’re charging over $20 for it, so plenty of margin for fuel. It would also serve customers much faster! I’ll keep searching for great pizzas in other airports.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you have a <a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0D6PQJ2PF?tag=photomatt08-20">Gozney</a> or <a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0F48FRPW7?tag=photomatt08-20">Ooni</a> at home (highly recommended!), try making a breakfast pizza. My friend <a href="https://www.youtube.com/@ChrisYoungCooks">Chris Young</a> recommends <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdiJ_fMnXOY&amp;t=460s">this dough recipe</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 17 Jan 2026 22:03:23 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:15;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:21:"Matt: A Better Writer";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151093";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:38:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/a-better-writer/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4915:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/13/arts/scott-adams-dead.html">RIP Scott Adams</a>. Early Dilbert was the first cartoon I fell in love with, and <a href="https://web.archive.org/web/20000229085730/http://www.dilbert.com/">early dilbert.com</a> was one of the first websites I remember visiting. My dad would print out cartoons and put them on his cubicle wall. Between the Dilbert comics, books, <a href="https://www.2600.com/">2600</a>, and <a href="https://www.wired.com/">Wired</a>, I was swimming between what felt like a radical transgressive world online and the reality of my dad putting on a suit and tie every day and working a giant cubicle farm programming computers.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s probably underappreciated how Dilbert (and <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_Space">Office Space</a>) made millions of better managers by making fun and teaching people what not to do.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Scott could put in a few words things that could transform the way you think, reframe the world. One of his classics, from a now-gone Typepad blog, was <strong>The Day You Became A Better Writer</strong>, which I&#8217;ll reproduce here:</p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity" />



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>I went from being a bad writer to a good writer after taking a one-day course in “business writing.” I couldn’t believe how simple it was. I’ll tell you the main tricks here so you don’t have to waste a day in class.</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>Business writing is about clarity and persuasion. The main technique is keeping things simple. Simple writing is persuasive. A good argument in five sentences will sway more people than a brilliant argument in a hundred sentences. Don’t fight it.</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>Simple means getting rid of extra words. Don’t write, “He was very happy” when you can write “He was happy.” You think the word “very” adds something. It doesn’t. Prune your sentences.</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>Humor writing is a lot like business writing. It needs to be simple. The main difference is in the choice of words. For humor, don’t say “drink” when you can say “swill.”</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>Your first sentence needs to grab the reader. Go back and read my first sentence to this post. I rewrote it a dozen times. It makes you curious. That’s the key.</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>Write short sentences. Avoid putting multiple thoughts in one sentence. Readers aren’t as smart as you’d think.</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>Learn how brains organize ideas. Readers comprehend “the boy hit the ball” quicker than “the ball was hit by the boy.” Both sentences mean the same, but it’s easier to imagine the object (the boy) before the action (the hitting). All brains work that way. (Notice I didn’t say, “That is the way all brains work”?)</em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>That’s it. You just learned 80% of the rules of good writing. You’re welcome.</em></p>



<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity" />



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Powerful. Profound.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Scott also said some not-great things, as the obituary notes. I&#8217;ll share something I posted internally at <a href="https://automattic.com/">Automattic</a>.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">When I was younger, I used to have a more binary view of people, but as I’ve grown, read a ton of biographies, seen the press cycles, and been lucky enough to meet some idols and villains, I’ve become much more comfortable taking everyone as a flawed human being.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I admire or learn from aspects, but that doesn’t mean I would 100% agree with everything. I don’t even 100% agree with my past self!</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One thing you’ll note in a lot of biographies is that people who have accomplished great achievements often have flaws or mistakes in equal measure.</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Take what lessons you like from people. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I love reading and writing about writing, and improving your writing is one of the best force multipliers for everything else you do in life. If you&#8217;d like to go further on this, the best book I&#8217;ve read on the subject is <a href="https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0090RVGW0?tag=photomatt08-20">On Writing Well by William Zinsser</a>. And if you want more Scott Adams, <a href="https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/the-dilbert-afterlife">read this piece from his doppelgänger Scott Alexander</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 17 Jan 2026 06:48:07 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:16;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:78:"WordPress.org blog: WordPress Playground Brings Speed, Stability, and Momentum";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=19673";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:81:"https://wordpress.org/news/2026/01/wordpress-playground-speed-stability-momentum/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:10575:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordPress Playground had a busy year in 2025, with updates that make it more capable for day-to-day development, plugin previews, and learning environments. The project’s latest year-in-review highlights progress across performance, compatibility, database support, and tooling, expanding what can be done in a WordPress environment that runs in the browser and through the command line.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">From faster load times to broader plugin support, the throughline is clear: Playground is moving beyond quick demos and into workflows that help developers and educators test, iterate, and share WordPress experiences more easily.</p>



<div class="wp-block-buttons is-content-justification-center is-layout-flex wp-container-core-buttons-is-layout-2bb63ab0 wp-block-buttons-is-layout-flex" style="border-style: none; border-width: 0px; border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-left-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 0px;">
<div class="wp-block-button"><a class="wp-block-button__link has-blue-5-background-color has-background wp-element-button" href="https://wordpress.org/playground/" style="border-top-left-radius: 0px; border-top-right-radius: 0px; border-bottom-left-radius: 0px; border-bottom-right-radius: 0px;">Try Playground Now</a></div>
</div>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img alt="" class="wp-image-19689" height="551" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/Screenshot-2026-01-09-at-2.13.49-pm.png?resize=1024%2C551&#038;ssl=1" width="1024" /></figure>



<div class="wp-block-spacer" style="height: 30px;"></div>



<div class="wp-block-group has-off-white-background-color has-background is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-083c866d wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Key Takeaways</strong></p>



<div class="wp-block-spacer" style="height: 20px;"></div>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Plugin previews are more reliable: </strong>99% of the top 1,000 plugins can be installed and activated successfully, making demos and evaluations more trustworthy.</li>



<li><strong>Everything is faster:</strong> A performance upgrade reduced average response time by 42%, and further optimizations improved overall “time to first useful click.”</li>



<li><strong>Database tools work in browser:</strong> Improved database compatibility enabled tools like phpMyAdmin to be used directly on <a href="https://playground.wordpress.net">playground.wordpress.net</a>.<br /><strong>More practical tooling for real work:</strong> Testing configurations and previewing changes can happen in one place, without a complete local environment first.</li>



<li><strong>New visual gallery of blueprints:</strong> A new <a href="https://wordpress.github.io/blueprints/">visual gallery of blueprints</a> provides excellent starting points for various types of sites.</li>



<li><strong>Global adoption:</strong> Playground was used 1.4 million times globally, with growing documentation translations and community contributions.</li>
</ul>
</div>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Reliable Plugin Previews and Experimentation</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A headline update from 2025 is the focus on compatibility. In testing with the top 1,000 plugins from the WordPress plugin directory, 99% installed and activated successfully. That matters because it raises confidence in what Playground is best known for: letting people try things quickly, without a complex setup, and with fewer surprises.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This highlighted that Playground is increasingly useful as a general-purpose PHP sandbox. Alongside WordPress, it can support standard PHP tools and projects, which makes it easier to explore how WordPress fits into broader development workflows and to share reproducible environments with others.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you try something new and unexpected in Playground, the update encourages you to share what you learn in the <a href="https://wordpress.slack.com/archives/playground">#playground</a> Slack channel, so the community can build a clearer picture of what works well today and what is improving next.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Faster Load Times</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Speed was a central theme in 2025. A recent <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/playground/2025/12/03/wordpress-playground-2025-year-in-review/">year-in-review report</a> revealed a 42% reduction in average response time, and this is not just a single change. A series of improvements make Playground feel quicker in the moments people notice most, such as loading WordPress, opening wp-admin, and switching between tasks.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Several behind-the-scenes updates were described in plain terms as “less waiting”: checks happen earlier, parts of the experience load in a smarter order, and more content is reused from cache, so repeat actions are snappier.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For people using Playground to review a plugin, validate a bug fix, or teach a class, these improvements mean the same thing: faster feedback loops, with fewer pauses that break concentration.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Better Tooling and Compatibility</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In 2025, Playground also became more “toolbox-like” in the browser. The update highlighted features that reduce context switching, such as editing files on the page, building and testing starter configurations (Blueprints) in a dedicated editor, and launching database tools such as phpMyAdmin and Adminer with a single click.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">On the database side, a significant compatibility upgrade was introduced to improve support for more complex database behavior. The practical outcome is that more WordPress sites and plugins behave as expected in Playground, and more developer tools can run inside the environment.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Blueprints also advanced in ways that benefit both builders and sharers. The updates focus on making starter setups easier to create, browse, and reuse, especially when a demo requires content, media, or a specific configuration that should launch consistently.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One of the clearest ways to see that progress is the <a href="https://wordpress.github.io/blueprints/"><strong>WordPress Blueprints Gallery</strong></a>, a community library of ready-to-launch WordPress environments. From practical “building block” examples (such as starting with a specific login role) to demos that automatically install themes and plugins, to richer setups that generate posts and featured images via WP-CLI, the gallery demonstrates how quickly an idea can become a fully functional site that you can browse and share.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Examples:</strong></p>



<div class="wp-block-columns are-vertically-aligned-center has-dark-strokes-grey-background-color has-background is-layout-flex wp-container-core-columns-is-layout-28f84493 wp-block-columns-is-layout-flex" style="border-width: 12px;">
<div class="wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<figure class="wp-block-image size-full"><img alt="" class="wp-image-19694" height="828" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/Screenshot-2026-01-09-at-2.51.02-pm.png?resize=714%2C828&#038;ssl=1" width="714" /></figure>
</div>



<div class="wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<figure class="wp-block-image size-full"><a href="https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https%3A%2F%2Fraw.githubusercontent.com%2Fwordpress%2Fblueprints%2Ftrunk%2Fblueprints%2Fstylish-press%2Fblueprint.json"><img alt="" class="wp-image-19698" height="828" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/Screenshot-2026-01-09-at-2.53.15-pm.png?resize=714%2C828&#038;ssl=1" width="714" /></a></figure>
</div>



<div class="wp-block-column is-vertically-aligned-center is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<figure class="wp-block-image size-full"><a href="https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https%3A%2F%2Fraw.githubusercontent.com%2Fwordpress%2Fblueprints%2Ftrunk%2Fblueprints%2Forganization-kentwood%2Fblueprint.json"><img alt="" class="wp-image-19704" height="826" src="https://i0.wp.com/wordpress.org/news/files/2026/01/Screenshot-2026-01-09-at-3.05.37-pm.png?resize=714%2C826&#038;ssl=1" width="714" /></a></figure>
</div>
</div>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><em>For anyone who wants to experience the power of WordPress without the setup, the gallery serves as a strong reminder of what Playground makes possible: shareable, repeatable site experiences that work the same way every time — ideal for demos, workshops, testing, and “try it now” links. </em></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Clear adoption signals back all of this. The review reports 1.4 million uses globally, documentation translations in multiple languages, and growing integration across the plugin directory through Playground-powered previews. It also points to a steady increase in community contribution, from documentation and support to talks and real-world workflows built on top of Playground.<br /><br />A huge thank you to everyone who tried Playground over the past year,  whether you launched a quick demo, tested a change, taught a workshop, or helped make the documentation more accessible in your language. And if there’s anything that would make Playground even more helpful for your day-to-day work, the project actively welcomes ideas and feature requests via the WordPress Playground GitHub issues tracker.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Looking Ahead</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As we closed out 2025 and now look forward to 2026, we can see several forward-looking initiatives, including work on MySQL binary protocol support (to enhance broader compatibility with MySQL tools) and continued exploration of debugging enhancements, such as expanded XDebug access.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For anyone who last tried Playground as a quick demo environment, 2025’s updates suggested a shift in direction: Playground is increasingly positioned as a practical layer for testing, teaching, previewing, and reviewing WordPress, both in the browser and in local workflows.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 15 Jan 2026 16:53:33 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Brett McSherry";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:17;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:103:"Open Channels FM: Matt Mullenweg on WooCommerce’s Future and Competitive Strengths in Online Commerce";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114249";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:107:"https://openchannels.fm/matt-mullenweg-on-woocommerces-future-and-competitive-strengths-in-online-commerce/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:171:"In a special relaunch episode of Do the Woo, hosts discuss WooCommerce's evolution with Matt Mullenweg, exploring its advantages, community impact, and future innovations.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 15 Jan 2026 12:20:43 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:18;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:16:"Matt: Do the Woo";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151089";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/do-the-woo/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:530:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">For my first podcast of the year with the WordPress community, I joined the new Do the Woo podcast! It started with a little technical difficulty but ended up being a great conversation about <a href="https://woocommerce.com/">WooCommerce</a>, <a href="https://wordpress.org/">WordPress</a>, and AI.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-embed alignwide is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">

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";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:95:"WPTavern: #200 – Corey Maass on His Real-Life AI Tools and Workflows in WordPress Development";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=202227";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:109:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/200-corey-maass-on-his-real-life-ai-tools-and-workflows-in-wordpress-development";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:73974:"<details>Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress, the people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case real life AI tools and workflows in WordPress development.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice. Or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today, we have Corey Maass. Corey&#8217;s been building for the web since the late nineties, starting out in the early days of Photoshop and tables. Learning JavaScript, ASP Classic and PHP, and eventually falling into the world of WordPress around 2010. Since then, he&#8217;s taken on building SaaS apps, managing client projects, and experimenting with a growing number of productivity tools and frameworks.</p>



<p>He&#8217;s joined us before, and today he&#8217;s here to share his perspective on what it&#8217;s been like adopting AI tools into his workflows, especially from the point of view of building projects for clients.</p>



<p>Although AI has dominated headlines over the last couple of years, Corey brings a practical angle to the conversation. He discusses the evolution of his tech stack and how embracing AI tools like Cursor, Claude Code and GitHub Copilot have completely changed the way he builds software and manages projects, allowing him to work faster, automate code, review, and unlock creativity in places he hadn&#8217;t expected.</p>



<p>We hear about how his journey with AI started, how he&#8217;s reimagined old projects using new tools, and how learning to interact with these models, sometimes granular, sometimes letting them run freely, has reshaped his daily workflow.</p>



<p>Corey describes the shift from using AI to just save time, to using it as a sounding board for inspiration and idea generation, even weaving it into artistic endeavors like music production.</p>



<p>Much of the discussion centers around how these advances have affected client work with Corey exploring the real world balance of responsibility, efficiency, and the changing nature of value for developers. Do clients care who, or what, wrote the code? Or just that it works? What does authentic creativity mean in an era where prompting and randomness a part of the toolkit?</p>



<p>Whether you&#8217;re a developer, curious about what working alongside AI means, or just wondering about the future of tech, and WordPress, in an increasingly automated world, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you, Corey Maass.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast by Corey Maass. Hello, Corey.</p>



<p>[00:03:33] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Hello.</p>



<p>[00:03:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Very nice to have you with us. Corey&#8217;s been on the podcast several times before. He&#8217;s here today to talk about the subject, which almost nobody has touched during the year 2025, that&#8217;s AI.</p>



<p>But actually I think we&#8217;ve got a curious angle because we&#8217;re not just going to touch it from a sort of more generic point of view, although we might. We&#8217;re going to talk about it from a client point of view and building things for clients and how, I guess, Corey is leveraging that to make life a little bit easier for himself. Let&#8217;s find out.</p>



<p>First of all, Corey, would you just introduce yourself? Give us you a little bio, tell us about you.</p>



<p>[00:04:04] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Absolutely, Corey Maass. I currently live in New Hampshire, which is in the northeast of the United States. I&#8217;ve been building for the web since 97, I think. Back in the day when we would do designs in Photoshop and then slice them up and put them in tables. And then I learned JavaScript, and I learned ASP Classic, and I learned PHP, and I got obsessed with building SaaS apps, you know, making websites actually do stuff instead of just look pretty. And then I found WordPress in about 2010 and it&#8217;s all been a wonderful, joyous, rollercoaster ride of happiness without exception.</p>



<p>[00:04:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s lovely. And I think we should end the podcast right there.</p>



<p>[00:04:48] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> And I met this wonderful guy named Nathan somewhere along the way, and my heart is full.</p>



<p>[00:04:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It does not get better than that. I really think we should end there. Congratulations, Corey Maass, we&#8217;ll see you next time. No, let&#8217;s get into it properly.</p>



<p>[00:05:01] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> And then the robots came.</p>



<p>[00:05:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That&#8217;s right. That&#8217;s what we are going to talk about. But you&#8217;ve been building for a long time. I mean, in terms of the internet, you really are like the heritage, aren&#8217;t you? 1997 was when people were just sort of starting out. I mean, there&#8217;s a few people that go maybe a little bit longer than that, but you&#8217;ve seen the whole thing.</p>



<p>Seems like in the year 2023, something like that, maybe 2024, certainly 2025, we&#8217;ve now got the advent of companions, AI companions that are helping us to do things online and build websites and so on. And I&#8217;m kind of just curious, let&#8217;s talk about your stack and where it is at the moment, and then we&#8217;ll get into how that stack has changed. But just tell us what you&#8217;re using right now. And we&#8217;re recording that December, 2025. And no doubt that will change fairly soon.</p>



<p>[00:05:45] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Still changes frequently. We&#8217;re chatting before we started recording and you said, have you updated Mac OS to this glass nonsense? And I went, absolutely. I bought into, to put myself in context, like I bought into the Apple ecosystem a few years ago. And I tend to, when they say update, I update. I might wait a day or two. Usually I will hear about, if something is truly crashing your computer, I&#8217;ll usually hear about it on Reddit or what have you. And so I might wait a day or a week, but I&#8217;m generally an early adopter is the point I&#8217;m trying to make.</p>



<p>But with that said, I&#8217;m also a pragmatic developer. So I want to use the tools that are the most beneficial, but I&#8217;m also not cutting edge, bleeding edge on what model is the absolute best and all that kind of stuff. But I&#8217;m also not not going to use AI once it actually benefits me. So I&#8217;m probably somewhere on one side of the bell curve or the other, but I&#8217;m not bleeding edge.</p>



<p>Anyway. So as of today, I am using Cursor as an IDE, but I am not using the AI in Cursor at all. I have been meaning to, but again, it&#8217;s pragmatically. I&#8217;m not trying to use things because they&#8217;re in front of me or what have you. So we can talk about why I wound up using Cursor. But what I generally am doing during the day is opening Terminal inside Cursor and using Claude Code almost exclusively. Which then, a buddy of mine has gotten me back into the process of actually doing pull requests, so that the code gets pushed to Git. And then I&#8217;m running Copilot, which is GitHub&#8217;s AI to do code reviews. That&#8217;s what I was trying to say. I&#8217;ve got Claude generally writing the code, and then I&#8217;ve got GitHub&#8217;s Copilot checking the code.</p>



<p>[00:07:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. Yeah, so that&#8217;s where you&#8217;re at the moment. But historically, if we were to gaze back over the last year, let&#8217;s go with that, how often does that iteration change? How often do you move from one thing to another because the landscape has moved or something superior appears to have come along?</p>



<p>[00:07:53] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s kind of amazing. This is part of why I wanted to have this conversation is, for me it started pretty much in March. I went to Thailand for a few weeks visiting a buddy of mine there who&#8217;s a developer, he had to work. Like, every weekend we were running around looking at temples and stuff like that. During the week he had to work, and so I was left to entertain myself. And so doing my usual client work, which was still very clicky, clickly, because it&#8217;s still WordPress, and WordPress hasn&#8217;t quite crossed that bridge, though we&#8217;re working on it.</p>



<p>But I said, okay, I want to use this time to start my AI journey. That&#8217;s where I said, let me subscribe to Cursor, 20 bucks a month, not unreasonable in the scheme of all of the software subscriptions that I have, and let me see what I can do.</p>



<p>And I have an app called Timerdoro, which is a productivity timer app, Pomodoro and that kind of thing. Friends and I built it, now it&#8217;s got to be 20 years ago, and we&#8217;ve never figured out how to monetise. In fact, yesterday I finally just slapped some ads on it because I couldn&#8217;t stand it anymore. And, no, that&#8217;s not true. I found an ad network that I wanted to try. But that&#8217;s kind of a perfect indication of how I think of Timerdoro. Timerdoro, I have rewritten at least a dozen times in at least four different, using four different tech stacks because a lot of people use it.</p>



<p>It has a hundred users a day or something, which is really cool. None of them want to give me any money, which I totally am fine with. It doesn&#8217;t cost me anything. But it gives me an opportunity to, here is a product that people are using, let me continue to play with it, tweak it, design it, totally rewrite it. And so I rewrote it again in March using Cursor, which was an okay experience.</p>



<p>Looking back, I can see how much Cursor has improved, both the IDE and the models that are built in. And I have completely changed, because a big part of it is your own learning how to work with it. And so, at what level do you give it, build a productivity timer, go? Or do you say, install the following libraries, create the following files, make the classes look like this, name the methods and functions like this? Like, too granular, where it just does the typing for you. Versus, it totally conceptualises everything. And so you&#8217;ve got to fall somewhere in the middle, maybe, right? Or figure out where you are in the middle.</p>



<p>And I generally, having written my own code for years and years, sure enough, was too granular. But I think that benefited me at the time. Whereas we&#8217;ve come a long way, where you can be more in the middle and something like Claude can figure it out.</p>



<p>The buddy that I was visiting, coincidentally, has absolutely doubled down. So he follows, he always talks about Tech Dev Dan or something, Dev Dan, who is sort of the thought leader in AI that he follows. And so he signs up for anything that Dan puts out, classes or courses or videos. And then he tends to, my friend Robert tends to distill some of that down to me. And so I might or might not implement it.</p>



<p>But then I&#8217;ve also got other colleagues in the WordPress world. I actually had a friend of mine come to me and be like, hey, will you kind of be my AI buddy as we figure out how to negotiate all of this changing landscape? I said, absolutely. And coincidentally, it has turned out that I&#8217;ve kind of been the Robert to him a little bit, where I am a little bit ahead of him, and a little more embracing of things than he is. And so we&#8217;ve all kind of, we all evolve, but we&#8217;re all kind of getting information from different sources.</p>



<p>So somewhere along the way, I mean Reddit and Twitter were just absolutely blowing up nonstop Claude. Claude Code when that came out. And so I was actually a little slow on the uptake, meaning a month, because I just, I didn&#8217;t get it. Like, so many of these things, people are like AI, and you&#8217;re like, right, but where do I type? Where does the code go? Or, I want to use AI, I am doing air quotes here, how do I get a website on the internet where people can click on it? It&#8217;s actually not intuitive necessarily to make that leap until, again, Robert has explained some things to me of, because again, he&#8217;s much more up on the words where he&#8217;s like, I think it&#8217;s called a harness is the thing you type into versus, the model is the actual AI you&#8217;re interacting with.</p>



<p>And so you&#8217;ve got TypingMind or you&#8217;ve got Claude, or you&#8217;ve got Terminal, but then you&#8217;ve got Claude, but you can actually use Claude with Gemini&#8217;s model if you want, or a Cursor. You know, if you go into the preferences, you can select which model. Do you want to use Open AI Opus, or do you want to use Gemini or do you want? And it was like, oh, right, okay, so there&#8217;s a thing you type into or interact with, and then there&#8217;s the actual model. But then, again, what are the patterns?</p>



<p>And like I said, I&#8217;ve just recently started, so with my buddy, we&#8217;ve been rebuilding, I have a game that I&#8217;ve talked about for a while. Mexicantrain.online is the website. And so it&#8217;s an online version of the Domino game, Mexican Train. I built it during COVID and I talked about it at WordCamp US two years ago, because it was kind of an amazing, one of those projects that I built because my wife told me I should, so that our family could play, continue to play, during COVID. And then it turned into thousands of users, and so it just became this, organically became this nice thing that a lot of people use. And it&#8217;s run by donations, which cynically, I never would&#8217;ve thought actually works. But people continue to give, I mean it&#8217;s amazing.</p>



<p>But it&#8217;s been a long time coming that it needs, the tech is now five years old. I needed to rebuild it. I approached my friend and said, hey, would you mind building this with me? Because we&#8217;ve kind of looked for a reason to work together. We worked together at a big WordPress agency five years, eight years ago, which is how we met, but we haven&#8217;t worked together since. And he&#8217;s gone very enterprise, and I tend to be still my freelancer self, working with individual clients directly and stuff like that.</p>



<p>And so what&#8217;s been hand ringing, but good is he&#8217;s like, okay, we&#8217;re going to introduce pull requests because we&#8217;re going to have Copilot check our work, and we&#8217;re going to have full suite testing. And I tend to not, like I can do that stuff, and there&#8217;s the occasional project where I need to do it, but for the most part I&#8217;m a, make a change and push it to the internet and see what happens kind of developer. And so we&#8217;ve introduced more process, but again, it&#8217;s neat because I have to make myself be like, do what he tells you kid. And so then I&#8217;m learning better ways to use these tools to build more robust software.</p>



<p>[00:14:31] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Was there ever a moment where, I don&#8217;t know if you were always bullish about technology, especially AI, it&#8217;s entirely conceivable to imagine that any given person that you see could be extremely bullish about AI, you know, somewhere in the middle or extremely, a little bit allergic to it or what have you. Now, I don&#8217;t know if there was any point where you swung between those two extremes or anything like that. But I was just curious if there was an epiphany that you had, like if there&#8217;s a particular moment that you can remember where you thought to yourself, oh, this is curious, you know? This is not something we&#8217;ve seen before. And if you do have one of those, I&#8217;d love to know what it was.</p>



<p>[00:15:07] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> There&#8217;ve definitely been those moments where, mind blown, mind blown, mind blown. Even recently, Nano Banana the new image AI is mind bogglingly good. And so there hasn&#8217;t been one moment, there have been many moments because things like, I did pay for whatever the original ChatGPT was for a while. When it really became popular, I think last year, right? And so I said, well, let me pay 20 bucks a month. But I wasn&#8217;t using it. It wasn&#8217;t that good. It was definitely helpful, but again, it was more of a dumb typing companion. I need an email that says this. There&#8217;s your 20 lines. I didn&#8217;t have to think about it. I skim it, I edited a little, I might run it back through, and then I&#8217;d go, yep, good enough. Take out the em dashes so it doesn&#8217;t look like AI, paste, send.</p>



<p>Treated it more like that. A year ago when I tried to have it right code, sorry robots, I love you. In the future, don&#8217;t murder me. You know, but a year ago, like the code that it was generating wasn&#8217;t great. It really was hallucinating a lot. Oh, you need to write a WordPress function that uses this hook. A quick Google determines that hook does not actually exist. Stop making stuff up. Whereas I very rarely encounter hallucinations these days.</p>



<p>[00:16:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, that&#8217;s a profound realisation.</p>



<p>[00:16:23] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Yeah, but to answer your question, like there were just these great moments of, like I had it write song lyrics and I was like, wow, these are surprisingly good. Or I remember early silly moments like we all had where I was like, take these song lyrics and rewrite them so that they&#8217;re in pirate speak or whatever, ha ha ha. Like this is a gimmick, right?</p>



<p>But then, again, probably in March, working through my first project building Timerdoro again, using Cursor. Googling how to use Cursor, taking the time to watch videos to understand how better to use it. And then again, moving along throughout the year, these little moments of, oh, that&#8217;s amazing code or, wow, and in 45 seconds we had an entire authentication system with front end that a user can sign into and it all just works. The database is already created and all this stuff. And you&#8217;re like, oh, okay, wow, it&#8217;s getting more and more powerful.</p>



<p>There&#8217;s always this thing in the back of my mind, I&#8217;m like, has it always been capable of this, meaning in the last year? And I&#8217;m just sort of taking, giving it more lead. Because again, I mean a big part of this is how we interact with it. And I keep thinking about scientists using it, or artists using it, because it&#8217;s the, little by little, again, we&#8217;re taking the collar off or, there&#8217;s a horse or a dog metaphor in here somewhere, I can&#8217;t quite. But giving it its own freedom to do what it wants, you know?</p>



<p>And how far can you take that? Like I keep thinking about, again, like science, where if you could give a model enough information, could it conceivably jump ahead months or years in our own research? Now research needs to be done, and things need to be proven and all that kind of stuff, but like in terms of thinking, are there things that it can conceive of that we just can&#8217;t? Brian Eno, the musician. I think it was him. I want to say it was him. I&#8217;m going to pretend it was him.</p>



<p>[00:18:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> He feels like the kind of character that it easily could be him. There&#8217;s a lot of technology in Brian Eno&#8217;s life, isn&#8217;t there?</p>



<p>[00:18:20] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Even away from technology, he, I believe it was him, I have to Google this. He created a deck of cards that said, as a musician, you&#8217;re in the studio and you&#8217;re like, my creativity needs help, right? And so there&#8217;s this deck of cards where you&#8217;d flip over a card and it would say, play the melody backwards. Or you&#8217;d flip over a card and it would say, what if this piece of music was being performed underwater? Or, what if somebody had a gun to your head? These thought experiments, right?</p>



<p>And you could actually look at that as, I don&#8217;t think anybody really would, but you could look at that as, oh, that&#8217;s not true creativity because something else is helping you do the work, right? As a human, if you&#8217;re a pure artist, it&#8217;s all supposed to come from your brain. You&#8217;re supposed to sit there in a dark room with a pen and a piece of paper. If it doesn&#8217;t come purely from your brain, then it&#8217;s not pure. And again, I don&#8217;t, it&#8217;s a weird example, but I don&#8217;t think most people would actually say that. They&#8217;d be like, it&#8217;s fine that you found random inspiration. Just like looking at nature, it&#8217;s going to inspire a painting or whatever, right?</p>



<p>[00:19:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, or looking at a previous painting will inspire your next painting.</p>



<p>[00:19:26] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> As long as in theory it&#8217;s not too derivative or whatever, right? So the interesting thing about AI that I keep trying to use, the way that I&#8217;m using it, even past writing code or what have you is, help me introduce that element of randomness, the flipping of a card. Next time you&#8217;re having your favorite AI model write an email, or do some creative writing, or come up with funny slogans for, like a lot of us are using it for. Help me come up with the tagline for the next SaaS landing page that I&#8217;m building or whatever. Introduce negatives. What is it not? Or say things like, have it write this in German and then translate it back to English or, write it like a 5-year-old would. Basically like help introduce that element of randomness and creativity.</p>



<p>[00:20:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s kind of interesting, the sort of through line that I&#8217;ve gathered from that is that at the beginning when you were using AI, correct me if I&#8217;m wrong, but it feels like the entire productivity gain, or the gain was a function of time. You were trying to reduce the amount of time a thing took to do. So, you know, if you want to, oh, I don&#8217;t know, modify the game that you were describing, this train game that you&#8217;ve got. You were trying to reduce the amount of time it would take to do the next iteration of that.</p>



<p>But it sounds like in the last year to 18 months, something along those lines, the expectation has now shifted. I&#8217;m presuming that the time thing is now just in the background. That&#8217;s guaranteed all the time. It&#8217;s always going to be quicker than it would be for a human to do it. But you&#8217;ve now moved into this curious creativity phase, which for many people I think was almost like the Turing test. You know, it was the bit that the computers, you could never imagine that the computer would ever be able to approximate something like that. And there&#8217;s a whole philosophical thing in there, which is probably too deep for us to open.</p>



<p>But it sounds like you are making use of that. You are using it to generate ideas, to come up with variations around a theme and relying on it to be creative. Now, if that&#8217;s the case, I wonder how long it will be before that becomes just the normal, in the same way that maybe the time function has become normal. I wonder how long it will be before we&#8217;re all just, well, yeah, the creativity piece, of course, go to a computer, go to an AI if you want ideas.</p>



<p>I wonder what the next thing, the next sort of hurdle to fall is? Because it&#8217;s hard for me to imagine anything beyond creativity in all honesty. Once it&#8217;s got approximations and mastered that, I&#8217;m doing air quotes this time, if it&#8217;s mastered that, it&#8217;s difficult for me to imagine what the next domino to fall would be. But no doubt there is one.</p>



<p>[00:21:49] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> And that&#8217;s what I&#8217;m getting at with the science stuff. There&#8217;s definitely, I think we&#8217;ve sort of chosen not to talk about the negatives. There are plenty and, or we&#8217;re foreseeing plenty or fearing a lot of things. Optimistically, at least in terms of output, to me we&#8217;re looking at coworkers who can do things faster, or employees or, I&#8217;m hesitant to say people who work for us but, you know, work that gets done on our behalf faster than we can do it, and in a way that we are satisfied with, right? Writing code is black and white. That&#8217;s not true at all, but it&#8217;s much more black and white compared to like writing a song.</p>



<p>[00:22:29] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s true. I think the, sorry to interrupt. I was just going to sort of establish that point a little bit more. I think you are absolutely right. The WordPress slogan, code is poetry, obviously kind of leans into this a little bit, but there is a kind of binary nature to it. When you finish it, it either works or it doesn&#8217;t to some extent. The goal is to do this thing, does it do this thing? No. Okay, something&#8217;s wrong in that. Something needs to be ironed out. The ones need to be zeros and the zeros need to be ones, whatever it may be.</p>



<p>In the real world, things can be a lot more messy than that. So for the tech industry, it feels like the technology is perfectly aligned to satisfy the goals of that. But, I don&#8217;t know, let&#8217;s say you are a, let&#8217;s find something which would be a great example. Let&#8217;s say you are a psychoanalysts, or a therapist or something like that. It&#8217;s not quite so straightforward, but the industry that we are in, it lends itself heavily to great success in that arena. Right, sorry, that was my interruption over.</p>



<p>[00:23:20] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> No absolutely. Perfectly restated. The code, there are degrees of efficiency. There are, you&#8217;re taking into context all of the different elements. So like Claude might write a method but it needs to work well with the way that the database is set up or whatever, right? So there&#8217;s nuances. This is what we&#8217;ve made careers off of.</p>



<p>But exactly as you say, at the end of the day, it needs to work, it needs to be performant, it needs to be sustainable code, a few things. You check off these boxes and good enough if nothing else. Versus like, I am also a music producer. I make dance music and I like the way that I make dance music. It probably could be made by AI, if I&#8217;m honest, but it won&#8217;t scratch that itch for me, and that&#8217;s fine, right? This is a thing that I will probably, I and my music colleagues will all continue to do, even in the face of AI, because that&#8217;s not the point. It&#8217;s not about a thing that does work. And we&#8217;re going to talk about a client project in a minute. We said we&#8217;d talk about that, right?</p>



<p>I have a client who&#8217;s hired me to build a piece of software that needs to do a certain thing. And so with her blessing, I am co-writing it with Claude Code, having it checked by Copilot, but at the end of the day, she doesn&#8217;t care who writes it or what language it&#8217;s in or, dot, dot, dot. It has to do a thing. It has to let people do a certain kind of work, right?</p>



<p>Different from music. I&#8217;m not, for me, bedroom producer, I&#8217;m not trying to make millions of sales. I&#8217;m not a pop recording artist who&#8217;s reliant on this stuff. And so for me, it&#8217;s about connecting with other humans after I produce a piece of, let&#8217;s call it art, which is, I think a stretch.</p>



<p>But I&#8217;m also, I&#8217;ve always struggled with the actual mixing of the music. Like hearing all of the frequencies and optimising the output. Because there is, again, a right way, like it&#8217;s not, again, it&#8217;s not black and white, but it&#8217;s much closer to, there is a right way for a song to sound with infinite variations, but within a very narrow gap, right? So I could write any kind of song I want, but the way that it should sound when I release it on Bandcamp does have answers. And in fact, this morning, I had finished a mix of a song last night, different from writing it, I&#8217;m going back through and tweaking it to try to make it sound as best as it could so that when I send it to DJs and they play it on dance floors, everybody throws their hands in the air, right?</p>



<p>I&#8217;ve always struggled with that. My ears aren&#8217;t good at hearing those kinds of things. I dropped the track into Gemini, and Gemini came back with a, you&#8217;ve got a peak of frequencies at around 5,000, so you should drop that by two db. Your kick and your base are competing, and so you should add a ducker to the base so that the kick comes through and that&#8217;ll actually save you four db of headroom when you&#8217;re mastering. Like, I mean it was.</p>



<p>[00:26:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It just gave you all the science, which is absolutely fascinating. That is genuinely interesting.</p>



<p>[00:26:15] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> It probably isn&#8217;t perfect, and it definitely can be subjective, like maybe I&#8217;m going for Lo-Fi House instead of Big Room House. But I gave it that information where I said, here&#8217;s the genre, make me sound like these other artists. And so it said, well, here&#8217;s sort of how to help guide you closer to their sound.</p>



<p>[00:26:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> The interesting thing there, I think, is it gave you a new rabbit hole that should you wish to explore, you just got it prized open. And you wouldn&#8217;t have known what any of that was. And so you could probably map that into a million different scenarios, you know, music, art, whatever may be. And it will just give you something back and you&#8217;ll be, oh, there&#8217;s that universe of stuff to get interested in. You know, the headroom of the dbs and all of that kind of, I mean it means nothing to me, but I kind of grasped that there&#8217;s a thing there.</p>



<p>Do you know, you said something really interesting earlier and it probably just slipped out of your mouth and you didn&#8217;t notice how interesting or profound it was. You said it wasn&#8217;t the point. And you were talking about making music and using AI for that isn&#8217;t the point. I think that&#8217;s going to become the metric of so much in the future. What&#8217;s the point of that thing?</p>



<p>So as an example, if I want to go and see a band, I do not want to watch a video of a band where I have a suspicion that there was an AI involved and it created this video and the music. The point is I want to go and see a bunch of human beings who I know have struggled with their art and their discipline and, you know, failure and moderate success and all of that kind of stuff. I want to know that there was that soul searching going on in that musical arena.</p>



<p>But curiously, when I go to a SaaS app, the point is, does it work? It&#8217;s really simple. Does it work? And do I care too much about how the functioning of it was achieved? Not really. The point is, does it work? And maybe we&#8217;ll be asking ourselves that question more. What is the point of the thing I&#8217;m about to do? Does it matter to me if AI was involved? On closer examination, yes it does. I&#8217;m going to avoid that thing. Or, no, it doesn&#8217;t. That&#8217;s fine. I&#8217;ll embrace that thing. It really landed with me what you said there. So that&#8217;s kind of curious. I wonder if I&#8217;ll start doing that more in my own life, examining the point of it. Is it a human enterprise, something extremely human and only for humans, or is it somewhere else on that spectrum? Yeah, interesting.</p>



<p>[00:28:32] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> An example just came to mind, which of course has now just gone out of my mind because I started thinking about six other things. But like I read a couple of graphic novels. That&#8217;s what it was, memes. I read a couple of graphic novels and some of it is, I read for the artistry. Some of it I read for the stories. There&#8217;s graphic novels where I actually really don&#8217;t like the artwork, but I like the storytelling. How would I feel about the art being generated by AI? Because the person who was writing the story couldn&#8217;t draw, but could tell a good story.</p>



<p>Or the example that had come to mind were memes, or funny photos, right? I&#8217;m not a meme person. I generally don&#8217;t repost animated gifs, or can haz cheeseburger, or any of that stuff. Some of it&#8217;s cute or whatever, and I&#8217;m not against it, but it doesn&#8217;t tickle my sense of humor, right?</p>



<p>But lately, I&#8217;ve long been proficient in Photoshop because like we said, I started in 97 when you were designing websites in Photoshop or whatever. And so for a long time, like I would say, so here&#8217;s a good example. One of my big clients is Seattle Magazine. And so we were doing, I don&#8217;t remember, there was some reference of Sasquatch, creatures that are most active in the Pacific Northwest, often around the Seattle area. They are real, by the way.</p>



<p>But the joke was that our editor was writing his letter or something. And so I, quick, ran over to AI and said, here&#8217;s the picture of Bigfoot that everybody knows, walking across the stream bed or whatever. Here&#8217;s headshots of my editor. Put my editor in this photo. And it generated a photo of Jonathan as Sasquatch, like walking across the river. And it made us all laugh. And I think we did end up putting it in the magazine. I don&#8217;t remember.</p>



<p>I would have done the same thing in Photoshop, much less effectively. Even 10 years before, I would&#8217;ve grabbed a copy of the original photo and done my best to Photoshop Jonathan into the photo, maybe he&#8217;s hiding behind a bush or something. I couldn&#8217;t actually change his body to be walking in that pose. Now I can.</p>



<p>Is the effect the same? And again, we&#8217;re not talking about the negatives, or obvious negatives, about image generation of other people. Used in a harmless, funny way or day to day. Like, another good example. So on the Mexican Train website, one of the things that I wanted when I created mexicantrain.online was, again, this was about people connecting. This was my COVID project. And so I, a couple of years before, I&#8217;m chatting with a buddy online, I was joking about how I was eating Cheez-its, which we like never have in the house and how Cheez-its are just the best thing in the world, and they&#8217;re dangerous to have in the house. And a week later, a box of like 50 packs of Cheez-its arrived because he had shipped it to me as a joke.</p>



<p>So I took a picture of me like looking absolutely exalted, elated, holding up Cheez-its. Oh my God, Cheez-its, right? And that&#8217;s what I put on the Mexican Train website as a like, hey, I&#8217;m Corey, I built this thing, because it was a very relatable photo. A funny little side story is that still, five years later, a lot of people who play Mexican Train daily or weekly using my website buy Cheez-its, or buy Cheez-its for each other as prizes and things like that. Like, it all became an inside joke.</p>



<p>In building the new version, I wanted a new homepage. But that photo, I&#8217;ve actually lost the original file of it, and I only have a low res version. So I uploaded that into Gemini. I&#8217;m also more bald and my beard is longer. And so I uploaded the original photo and then a couple of photos of me more recently and said, hey, Gemini, using Nano Banana, create a new version of this. And also, like the original photo is very zoomed in. You could really just see my face. And so I was like, I want head and shoulders. And it did a beautiful job. Fixed the lighting. It looks almost a little too polished, frankly. And my wife looks at it and she&#8217;s like, I don&#8217;t know why, but I can tell that&#8217;s AI generated, like I can tell that&#8217;s not you. But to anybody else, it&#8217;s certainly close enough. I look at it and I&#8217;m like, it&#8217;s me but I&#8217;ve been photoshopped a little or, you know, it&#8217;s been cleaned up or something. But it&#8217;s close enough. But it&#8217;s a better photo that still conveys the same message, but it works better on the page, I think. But it&#8217;s not authentic, air quotes.</p>



<p>[00:32:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that whole authenticity thing is going to be, well, I guess it&#8217;s going to be a question for everybody going forward, certainly in, you know, you can imagine politics and things like that. Just judging whether or not the politician that&#8217;s on your screen at the moment is in fact doing that thing.</p>



<p>[00:33:12] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> That&#8217;s the terrifying part is, what&#8217;s real anymore?</p>



<p>[00:33:15] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> There&#8217;s no doubt that we are going to have to kind of work that through.</p>



<p>When you are using your AI, and we will get onto your client bits in a minute. When you are using the AI, on what level do you feel that you are in some kind of relationship with it? That&#8217;s a very ephemeral question. But, do you view it as, so you described that a year ago it was less good. So in human terms you might say, okay, it&#8217;s more childlike or something like that. You know, it&#8217;s a smaller version of a human being. It&#8217;s less mature and what have you. Now it&#8217;s grown up, for want of a better word. It&#8217;s a little bit older perhaps, or more mature or whatever it may be. Do you think about it in any human terms?</p>



<p>[00:33:48] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Oh, absolutely.</p>



<p>[00:33:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Isn&#8217;t that fascinating.</p>



<p>[00:33:49] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> So what&#8217;s funny is, we&#8217;ve had a few of these conversations lately. My neighbors have Alexa in their house and they changed it to respond to computer, and they will only refer to it as, it. They did not want it to be humanised dogmatically. Like, it&#8217;s important to them that this is not a companion, a creature, a whatever, right?</p>



<p>I don&#8217;t care that much, and in fact, I enjoy playing with language. And I don&#8217;t see, the current state of how we&#8217;re interacting with our technology, I don&#8217;t have a problem with humanising it, or at least using certain pronouns and things like that.</p>



<p>And that&#8217;s why I say that specifically, Claude is a, he, it&#8217;s a male name, male, Western English name, right? Or if nothing else, I&#8217;ve never met or heard of a woman named Claude. Claude has always been a he. But one of the funny things that happened working with my buddy Robert, is he, like I said, he introduced Copilot to do code reviews and we&#8217;re chatting, he&#8217;s one of my, the buddies that I have where, you know, we chat online all day, every day, ongoing conversation. And he just started saying she about Copilot. And I did too. I did notice it, but I&#8217;m like, I have no objection, reaction to this. I see no harm in it.</p>



<p>I have no idea if we&#8217;re going to take this conversation way too far. The Octocat, that is the mascot of GitHub. I don&#8217;t know if the Octocat has a gender or pronouns or what have you. If you&#8217;re going to think of Copilot as some version of the Octocat, like I don&#8217;t, how you might get there, even subconsciously, right? But like just using Copilot, Robert started saying she, so I started saying she. And then he actually said after, Robert, after a couple of days was like, you know, by the way, I don&#8217;t know if you noticed, but I&#8217;d started saying she for Copilot. For some reason I got a, call it a feminine energy off of her. And I was like, yeah, I noticed. I could maybe pick up, perceive that too, if I&#8217;m going to overanalyse it. I mean it so doesn&#8217;t matter.</p>



<p>So now Copilot is she and Claude is he. I&#8217;ve never thought to ask Copilot if they have preferred pronouns, which I guess would then actually get it into that like real world and societal conversations and philosophical, not to say that a gender discussion is philosophical but, you know what I mean? Like, actual consequences of real world issues, let&#8217;s call it that.</p>



<p>[00:36:06] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It is so interesting that a lot of things, the sort of anthropomorphic nature of it, so we&#8217;re trying to build robots at the minute, and in many cases we&#8217;re trying to build a version of a human being. You know, it&#8217;s got legs and arms and clearly in many cases that is the least plausible design for the thing it&#8217;s trying to achieve. But we have this notion that, well, if we get a human being out of robots, that&#8217;s going to be great. It will be able to do all the things that we can do.</p>



<p>But equally, on some level, we&#8217;re trying to get it to approximate human intelligence, human creativity, and things like that. And that kind of leads me to this one final thing before we talk about your clients, and that is, at what point do we start learning from it?</p>



<p>[00:36:43] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Aren&#8217;t we already? You&#8217;re constantly asking questions.</p>



<p>[00:36:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, that was exactly the question. Yeah, so it would appear that in the case of code, at least anyway, you know, you ask it to do a particular thing and it will come up with this, I mean you could ignore what it&#8217;s done and just play the output and interact with what it has achieved. But if you were to delve into the code, I suspect there is quite a lot of head scratching and looking at things and going, gosh, that&#8217;s interesting. Why has it done it that way? That&#8217;s curious. Oh, I should be doing it that way.</p>



<p>[00:37:08] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Is it better than me, versus is it better than everybody? We don&#8217;t have a way to determine that. And that&#8217;s why I brought up the science stuff earlier. I&#8217;m like, okay, so if a bunch of scientists, let&#8217;s just be vague here, are in a laboratory, or in a think tank and are working together, but they&#8217;re also feeding everything that they&#8217;re thinking into an AI who is also thinking, at what point if, somebody comes up with a brand new concept or a new way to approach a medical issue or something like that, you&#8217;re like, oh, that&#8217;s amazing. I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s been done before. What happens when that&#8217;s Claude or ChatGPT?</p>



<p>Presumably, in that specific instance, like the same process of like, oh, that&#8217;s, I don&#8217;t think any of us have thought of that before, let&#8217;s go do some experiments to see if that actually works, kind of thing. What if it&#8217;s well beyond our comprehension? What if it&#8217;s, there&#8217;s a conclusion, words that are typed on a screen that are so far beyond anything that we&#8217;re doing? You think of Einstein or you think of these scientists who have done stuff that, you know, or even, I mean you could be as vague as like painters who died in poverty and obscurity, but we revere them today. Vincent Van Gogh of course comes to mind.</p>



<p>[00:38:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s kind of curious because obviously each one of us is a little entity and we&#8217;re constrained by our biology. You know, we&#8217;ve got this finite capacity in our brain. You have a finite time span on earth so, you know, for much of that time, you are just basically a recipient of knowledge, if you like? You&#8217;re this sponge, which is sucking things in. And then for a period of time you&#8217;ll be able to regurgitate it. You know, if you have an accident, your capacity will be diminished. If you&#8217;re knocked on the head or something like that. But you&#8217;re bound in time and you are bound in capacity because of the size of the neural network that you&#8217;ve got in your head.</p>



<p>And yet we&#8217;re now being confronted with this other thing, which can do things remarkably quickly, can have the entire corpus of more or less everything at its disposal at a moment&#8217;s notice. And it can, this version of the entity over there, inside that other box is exactly the same as this one over here. You know, they&#8217;re kind of replicas of each other. And then if you put those two together, they can do things in symbiosis at twice the speed than, basically they&#8217;ve got this whole load of stuff going on that we can&#8217;t hope to manage.</p>



<p>And it&#8217;ll be so interesting being in relation with that, and how we start to learn from it because, when was the last time you actually went to a book or went to a human teacher in your adult life to learn something? You just sort of go to Google, don&#8217;t you? And you&#8217;ve trusted on a computer to serve up the information for you for a long time. We&#8217;ve now got a new route to that information. I wasn&#8217;t really going anywhere with that. It was more of a sort of thought process. Yeah, interesting. Okay, let&#8217;s move to your client then.</p>



<p>You did allude to this a little while ago, and it sounded like, certainly for the one client that you&#8217;ve got, there&#8217;s no obstacle here. You are just building the stuff. The client is entirely happy. I presume you are taking on the responsibility if the things that you produce with the AI kind of backfires or something is not working correctly. Is that your estimation of sort of the future into 2026, 2027, that the clients basically don&#8217;t care?</p>



<p>And if that&#8217;s the case, does it allow you to be more profitable because you are spending less time? Or more effective because you can do more complicated things? Or, do you sense that maybe we&#8217;re going to hit a point in the years that come where the clients start to, well, rebel is the wrong word, but you know what I mean, their expectations will be, well, it&#8217;s no longer, well, I know that Corey&#8217;s using AI, so my expectation&#8217;s going to go up in terms of his output, but also my expectation of his fee is going to go down as well? So there&#8217;s a lot in that question, but unpack bits however you choose.</p>



<p>[00:40:47] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> So answering part 2.6b first.</p>



<p>[00:40:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that&#8217;s helpful.</p>



<p>[00:40:52] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> The story is, I had a client who had software built, it didn&#8217;t work out. But that meant that, largely her budget had been spent and so she was left with software that was, didn&#8217;t do everything she needed it to and, or at least there was not a lot of budget leftover for, because it&#8217;s, when the rubber hits the road kind of thing. Going, oh wait, we didn&#8217;t think of this. Now that we&#8217;re actually using it every day, we need it to do this and this instead of this and this. You design in a bubble and then you actually need to use the thing. And there just wasn&#8217;t budget left over.</p>



<p>And so when we started talking, she&#8217;s like, I need these few things fixed. I looked at it and was like, I can&#8217;t really maintain this. We really want to, I mean typical, this is going to sound like every developer is like, I have to build it from scratch my way. But in some sense, at least in order for me to maintain it, it needed to be rebuilt my way. But we kept looking at, what would that cost? And she&#8217;s like, I&#8217;ve already spent my budget and so we&#8217;re waiting for new clients to come in or lightning to strike so that Corey can do this.</p>



<p>AI happened to be that lightning. And I went back to her and I said, I think we&#8217;re to the point now, this was just a couple months ago, that I can build it for probably half based on hours. Because we&#8217;re still, at least at the moment, going, okay, we&#8217;re charging X dollars per hour of Corey&#8217;s time which isn&#8217;t, has never been, or at least for a long, long time, has not been just me typing characters into an IDE, right? A code editor. You&#8217;re paying for Corey&#8217;s experience, you&#8217;re paying for Corey&#8217;s planning, you&#8217;re paying for conversations that we&#8217;re having in order to come to certain conclusions to figure out the software we&#8217;re going to build, blah, blah, blah.</p>



<p>So thinking of it in that same context, it&#8217;s not just about me typing. And so now it&#8217;s not about me typing at all. And in fact, I&#8217;ve had friends now, and I&#8217;ve read this too where the sentiment, or a sentiment, of developers now is we are project managers. We are product designers, or acting as the client in classic agile project management style. We are code reviewers because we&#8217;re not, why should we take the time to write the code anymore? And again, this is why, part of why we introduced Copilot, because it&#8217;s like, oh, then if we can also not do that part of it.</p>



<p>Humans are valuable. That was something that you inadvertently alluded to earlier, is that we are still currently, we think we&#8217;re steering the ship, telling AI what to do and controlling how we&#8217;re using it and stuff like that, but like we make mistakes just as much as AI does. We aren&#8217;t the stop gap we often think we are, because we often make mistakes, or we don&#8217;t know what we don&#8217;t know, like you said a minute ago about just googling everything and that kind of thing.</p>



<p>So anyway, talked to the client, said, look I think we can build this for half the price. I&#8217;m willing to take the risk if you are. I&#8217;m very upfront about like, we&#8217;re building this with AI, which is part of why we can do this. And she said, great, let&#8217;s do it. And so it&#8217;s been a slightly different experience. We still had to have the conversations about what the product looks like, what it does, and stuff like that. But I was in fact able to get it going a lot faster than I would have before. And because this is client work, I&#8217;m checking it a lot more diligently. Because again, like you said, there&#8217;s liability, or at least I&#8217;m going to be the one that has to fix it, so I need to make sure that it&#8217;s written in a language that I understand, and it&#8217;s laid out in a way that I understand.</p>



<p>And I was a little more opinionated because I want to make sure that files are in certain folders, which nobody, as we said at the beginning of the call, nobody cares about. Like, as long as the software works, nobody cares where the files are. But we&#8217;ve, over 30 years of development, we&#8217;ve developed certain patterns that just make it easier. So why shouldn&#8217;t we take the time to make it easier? And especially since I don&#8217;t have to do the work, I can say, hey, Claude, you put this file over here, put it over here instead. And Claude goes, sure. Why not? I don&#8217;t care.</p>



<p>[00:44:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I guess if we ever get to the point where the AI is literally doing everything, then all of that would go out the window, wouldn&#8217;t it? You wouldn&#8217;t ever need to care where that file was, so long as the AI had a hand in knowing where that was, and it could retrieve that information and modify things as it was. But it feels like we&#8217;re certainly still in that human diagnosis phase, where you need it to look a certain way. I&#8217;m doing air quotes again, the sort of old fashioned way, you know what I mean? The way you&#8217;ve always done it, so that when it puts something out, you, yourself can look at it and go, okay, this is comprehensible to me. I can understand and see if there&#8217;s been errors. But I would imagine it&#8217;s not going to be long until that moment has passed.</p>



<p>[00:45:23] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> With the new version of Mexican Train, treating it kind of like I talked about Timerdoro early on, I&#8217;m caring a lot less, and I&#8217;m forcing myself to care a lot less. I&#8217;ve got a working version, this is an online game that is important to people, and it&#8217;s not that it&#8217;s not important to me, but I am comfortable with taking a little more risk. And so I am letting it more freely do what it wants.</p>



<p>What&#8217;s interesting is we are not to the point yet where, as you said, this box is the identical to this box. So I am finding that on certain days it&#8217;ll go, well, I&#8217;ll put the file here, and on other days it&#8217;ll say, put the file here. It doesn&#8217;t matter, right? At least with that example, it doesn&#8217;t matter. You want it to write performant code, so you want it to make choices where things like performance matter, but whether a file is in one directory or another does not have real impact on the performance of the game.</p>



<p>But comprehension down the road, because this is where we overlap with humans. You&#8217;re like, okay, so Claude tomorrow needs to understand where things are. It still makes more sense to have a logical file structure so that Claude tomorrow can go, oh, it looks like all of these types of files are in this directory. And so we end up coming to some of the same conclusions that 30 years of human development has decided are the better patterns.</p>



<p>[00:46:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. Yeah, that&#8217;s kind of interesting. I mean, I guess it was ultimately because it&#8217;s creating its own, I don&#8217;t know, it&#8217;s next word based upon the whole corpus of the human word written down on the internet. It&#8217;s probably going to make, draw some broadly similar conclusions.</p>



<p>It sounds, from what you just said, you used the word like half, I think a minute ago when you were talking about maybe the budget or the time available. Sounds like you were at roughly 0.5, half of whatever the commodity was, budget or time or what have you. Is that roughly where you think you are at the moment compared to pre AI in terms of efficiency? And do you see that efficiency, again, time or money, whatever it may be, do you see that dynamic changing so that you eventually get to, I don&#8217;t know, 0.4, 0.3, 0.1 of the amount of time that you would&#8217;ve done? And do you have an expectation that, at the time that you are doing 0.1 of the work for the same outcome, that you&#8217;ll get 1.0 of the salary that you got? Or will you have to do, you know, the other 0.9 on other jobs?</p>



<p>[00:47:43] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> There&#8217;s a reason why developers really like starting new projects or rewriting them from scratch, right? Clean slate. And I think that that work, where you are in total control, in an empty directory, all technology at your fingertips, I see that quickly speeding up. I&#8217;ll tell you, one of the biggest hacks, I should have said this way up front, like the best value, because I&#8217;m finding a lot of people don&#8217;t know this, is screenshots will save you.</p>



<p>Claude Code does not, there are ways around this, but largely Claude Code or other AIs do not know what things look like in the browser. So taking screenshots, dropping them in, you can now say, look, the columns are misaligned or whatever. But also, even text, like I am just constantly taking screenshots and throwing them in to Claude, right?</p>



<p>So part of what I&#8217;m doing right now, I know there&#8217;s a better way to do this, but I haven&#8217;t stopped to figure it out yet, is, Copilot reviews the code and then spits out a bunch of comments, right? I am taking screenshots of each one of those comments and dropping it back into Claude and saying, here&#8217;s what Copilot said, fix it. But I don&#8217;t even really have to type any words because Claude just reads the words that are in the screenshot. So it takes me three seconds to take a screenshot, drop it into Claude, and then Claude goes, oh, it looks like Copilot said we should do this instead, that makes sense. Or even has come back and said, well, Copilot doesn&#8217;t understand the bigger context, so I&#8217;ll push back on this kind of thing, right?</p>



<p>But I&#8217;m still copying, I&#8217;m still taking screenshots and pasting. There&#8217;s got to be a way, I fully intend to do this soon, to figure out how to have Claude just read those comments and so the two of them can work together. So I shouldn&#8217;t be involved until there&#8217;s, I want a system that comes back and says, Claude did all, made all these changes, Copilot made all these comments, Claude is cool with these and not with these. Overall, we&#8217;re good to go.</p>



<p>[00:49:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;d be so interesting to set the two agents against each other, I don&#8217;t know, at bedtime on one evening, and to wake up in the morning and see quite how they&#8217;ve got along, if you know what I mean? You know, has it been this entirely, because obviously it&#8217;s built upon the corpus of human knowledge, it&#8217;d be interesting to see if it&#8217;s been this entirely productive experience, or if there has been some element of humanity creeping into that conversation where, you know, one of them throws their toys out the trolley halfway through and things like that. It&#8217;d be absolutely fascinating to see if they, you know, or if one just sort of, I don&#8217;t know, determines that maybe, oh, that AI&#8217;s doing a much better job than I am. I&#8217;m going to slow it down with some.</p>



<p>[00:50:19] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Or level up or, yeah. So getting back to your question though, right? Nothing is the same as actual humans interacting with something. So if we&#8217;re talking about traditional software that humans are clicking on, and then that&#8217;s my second biggest point right now is, since we&#8217;re supposed to be talking about WordPress, WordPress is all about clicking, right? It&#8217;s all about interface. It&#8217;s all about, you&#8217;re signing into an admin so you think about how visual that is, and then in the admin, you&#8217;ve got this left menu with, here&#8217;s all your options, click, click, click, click. And then the design of the page, right?</p>



<p>Every client wants the logo to be bigger. And so you can go into AI and say like, oh, where I&#8217;m at right now is, if I&#8217;m building something new, I can use AI, I can generate it if I&#8217;m building software. But trying to essentially retrofit into current existing WordPress sites, we&#8217;ve got all these features that require clicky clicky on buttons, and AI can&#8217;t do that readily or what have you.</p>



<p>So I&#8217;m still spending a large part of my day signing into WordPress sites, clicking around actually making changes, reconnecting. When we post a story, it pushes to Facebook and so I&#8217;ve got to actually go in and connect and click through the screens and all that kind of stuff. Which at the end of the day, most of the changes that you&#8217;re making in UI correspond to things being saved in a database. So at some point we&#8217;re going to get to where AI knows, oh, for Beaver Builder, I can make this change, store it in the database in a certain shape, and Beaver Builder will know how to render that on the front end.</p>



<p>I&#8217;m already finding that with ACF, for example, like I have ACF save field groups as JSON, a feature they&#8217;ve had for a decade. But because it&#8217;s in JSON, in text files, AI can read that and then go in and make changes or replicate it sideways because it says, oh, it wants the data to look, have this certain structure so I can create another file and make the data have this certain structure and does a great job. But there are 50,000 plugins. And I&#8217;m not about to let AI go and look at my database willy-nilly to say, oh, Elementor wants the data to be stored this way in the database, let me just start writing things to, you know? And so there&#8217;s still that disconnect right now.</p>



<p>[00:52:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think WordPress is doing a lot of work with things like the Abilities API and things like that to sort of surface what WordPress is capable of. And I would imagine, you know, you mentioned Beaver Builder and Elementor, I&#8217;m imagining that in a future, they&#8217;ll be writing what their capabilities are, and where they&#8217;re storing their information in such a way that the, hopefully anybody with any AI can kind of instruct the AI to do the thing, and it will know what the thing is.</p>



<p>Absolutely fascinating. I&#8217;m so curious because you are doing a whole load of stuff that I&#8217;m just not doing. I was never really an out and out developer, I was kind of dangerous with code. But equally it does seem like folk like me, who are not really experimenting with this too much are getting, well, left behind is maybe one way of describing it, maybe we&#8217;re sort of enjoying it on some level as well. We&#8217;re enjoying watching other people do it, and we get to worry about what the societal impacts will be.</p>



<p>[00:53:44] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> It&#8217;s points of integration. Electric cars came along and most of us were like, I don&#8217;t want or can&#8217;t buy a Tesla. But then the Prius came out and everybody went, oh, I can buy a Toyota. That&#8217;s probably historically inaccurate. Maybe the Prius came out before Tesla, but you get my point.</p>



<p>The people around me, my neighbors are teachers. One of them has no interest, has no reason to use AI other than like, oh, let me look up a recipe or something. Versus, the other neighbor who really wants to be cutting edge and also thinks that this stuff is really neat. Is constantly trying to figure out, how can I run, generate, bingo cards was the new thing? Have AI figure out how to do these bingo cards for my students, or what have you. And you get into the moral gray area of, who&#8217;s actually writing papers and then who&#8217;s actually grading them? And so basically you&#8217;ve got AI grading papers that were written by AI. And you can get into, like anything, there&#8217;s all these sort of side effects. But, again, trying to keep it upbeat, like there&#8217;s neat things.</p>



<p>[00:54:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. No, I think we&#8217;ve done a great job of kind of keeping it upbeat. You&#8217;ve just been relentlessly positive about it. You know, it&#8217;s obviously had a profound impact on your life, your capacity to do things. You sound like you&#8217;re infinitely curious about it as well. So it&#8217;s, maybe the life of a developer was something that wouldn&#8217;t have held the same level of excitement for the next decade or more. But this new technology getting injected and shaking everything up a bit, makes it so that you can do things that you might not have ever taken on, because the technical challenges or time might have been too difficult.</p>



<p>[00:55:12] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Would I want to be a new developer? I don&#8217;t know. Again, I think things are, I&#8217;m trying to describe where I&#8217;m at now, where, again, like WordPress is still very clicky clicky, and that happens to be the majority of the work that I do professionally.</p>



<p>I also think that, like I run a lot of websites for friends and for local nonprofits and stuff like that because there&#8217;s still something to be said for having a website. And the easiest way, so like we have a local, city owned, calling it a ski mountain is generous. You can technically ski on it. Most of the value to the community is there&#8217;s a tubing hill. So you get pulled up the hill in a tube and then you come screaming down the hill at 25 miles an hour. It&#8217;s freaking awesome.</p>



<p>I volunteer there and so when we needed a new website, I said, let me make a new website, right? I don&#8217;t want to be, if I&#8217;m involved in a tubing accident, this is the pointed version of getting hit by a bus, the developer scenario of getting hit by a bus, right? Somebody else needs to be able to step in and maintain that. So the website can&#8217;t, the value of something like WordPress, a CMS software in general for generating websites, right. I can&#8217;t, and even, TMI, but the guy who had the previous website had built it all by hand, and so nobody else could begin to maintain it or make changes to it.</p>



<p>And so for the new version, I was like, this is literally the best scenario for WordPress because I created the website and then I shot a video of how to update the website. And just a week ago, the head of the board in charge of it got in touch and said, hey, how do we make changes to the website? Do I have to send them to you? And I said, here&#8217;s a video, go give it a try. And if you get stuck, then absolutely contact me. But if there was any sort of running of scripts or FTPing into the server to make changes, or any of that stuff, like it would fall flat. And so you still need, at the moment, you still need clicky clicky.</p>



<p>Shortly, as you said with the new API and stuff, there&#8217;ll be a little chat bot where you&#8217;ll say, look at this website. And the AI will go, oh, it looks like you&#8217;re using Beaver Builder with ACF, and you&#8217;ve got Yoast installed, dah, dah, dah. And then you&#8217;ll say, okay, we need to change the homepage to say the following things. And I think we&#8217;re going to go through, like any of this stuff, we&#8217;re going to go through a phase where it&#8217;s going to absolutely break the website and my phone will ring.</p>



<p>But six months later, it&#8217;ll get better and better and better, and then using certain plugins. And I think, you talk about adoption, I think, if the plugins that lean into making AI be able to use their software well and quickly. So like I&#8217;m a big fan of Beaver Builder. So if Beaver Builder leans into enabling AI to interact with Beaver Builder, right? Then we are going to, just like any of the things in WordPress, there&#8217;s good and there&#8217;s bad, there&#8217;s favorites, there&#8217;s things that break over time. There&#8217;s all that kind of stuff, things that are maintained well and whatnot.</p>



<p>And so we&#8217;re going to get to a point where certain stacks are going to work better with AI. And I think site creators like me are going to say, oh, I don&#8217;t want to maintain this website for our local ski hill more than I have to. But instead of them having to go in and click on things and adjust boxes on a screen, I&#8217;m going to use Beaver Builder, but maybe I give up, ACF will never let me down but let&#8217;s, hypothetically, ACF doesn&#8217;t work well with AI, but Meta Box does. So I might say, okay, I&#8217;m going to switch my AI friendly stack to be Beaver Builder with Meta Box, so that they can just go in and type something, it&#8217;ll all sort itself out more reliably. And I think that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re going to see over time.</p>



<p>[00:58:59] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think there&#8217;s been so many interesting predictions about what is coming. Most of my predictions have turned out to be just hot air, essentially, because the rate of change is so, so, very fast. But I do like the direction that WordPress is going in, where it&#8217;s being sort of agnostic of the AI, the actual API, for want of a better word. You know, it&#8217;s just going to hopefully be able to bind to any of those. I think that&#8217;s a curious direction, and it kind of leans into that, I guess the philosophy of something like WordPress as well. That it&#8217;s there for everybody and it&#8217;s not there to generate money for a particular company, be it Open AI or Gemini or what have you.</p>



<p>We&#8217;ve probably hit the sweet spot in terms of the amount of time that we can give to this. What an interesting discussion though. So far ranging. We ended up with lots of sort of philosophical points, and lifestyle points and all sorts in there. But I think in the end we sort of wrestled it back to WordPress.</p>



<p>So Corey, where can we find you? If somebody&#8217;s interested in sort of having a chat and wants to talk AI, where would you be online?</p>



<p>[00:59:53] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Sure. Twitter, @coreymaass, is probably the social that I&#8217;m most active on. But also, Post Status, the WordPress community. Always love shouting that out. That&#8217;s been invaluable in my life and career. And then me as a developer, company, gelform.com. G-E-L-F-O-R-M .com. You can email me there if you want to yell at me or praise me or, but privately.</p>



<p>[01:00:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay. We will put all of those into the show notes so that anybody that wants to reach Corey can do that. Head to wptavern.com, search for Corey&#8217;s name. It&#8217;s a slightly unusual spelling. The surname, it&#8217;s C-O-R-E-Y, the Corey bit, but Maass is M-A-A-S-S. So search for that and you&#8217;ll be able to find him. Corey, thank you so much for chatting to me today.</p>



<p>[01:00:39] <strong>Corey Maass:</strong> Thanks Nathan. Always a pleasure.</p>
</div></details>



<p>On the podcast today we have <a href="https://x.com/coreymaass">Corey Maass</a>.</p>



<p>Corey’s been building for the web since the late nineties, starting out in the early days of Photoshop and tables, learning JavaScript, ASP Classic, and PHP, and eventually falling into the world of WordPress around 2010. Since then, he’s taken on building SaaS apps, managing client projects, and experimenting with a growing number of productivity tools and frameworks. He’s joined us before, and today he’s here to share his perspective on what it’s been like adopting AI into his workflows, especially from the point of view of building projects for clients.</p>



<p>Although AI has dominated headlines over the last couple of years, Corey brings a practical angle to the conversation. He discusses the evolution of his tech stack, and how embracing AI tools like Cursor, Claude Code, and GitHub Copilot have completely changed the way he builds software and manages projects, allowing him to work faster, automate code review, and unlock creativity in places he hadn’t expected.</p>



<p>We hear about how his journey with AI started, how he’s reimagined old projects using new tools, and how learning to interact with these models, sometimes granular, sometimes letting them run freely, has reshaped his daily workflow. Corey describes the shift from using AI just to save time, to using it as a sounding board for inspiration and idea generation, even weaving it into artistic endeavours like music production.</p>



<p>Much of the discussion centres around how these advances have affected client work, with Corey exploring the real-world balance of responsibility, efficiency, and the changing nature of value for developers. Do clients care who, or what, wrote the code, or just that it works? What does authentic creativity mean in an era where prompting and randomness are part of the toolkit?</p>



<p>Whether you’re a developer curious about what ‘working alongside AI’ means ‌or just wondering about the future of tech and WordPress in an increasingly automated world, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p><a href="https://x.com/coreymaass">Corey on X</a></p>



<p><a href="https://gelform.com">Corey&#8217;s Gelform website</a></p>



<p><a href="https://cursor.com">Cursor</a></p>



<p><a href="https://claude.com/product/claude-code">Claude Code</a></p>



<p><a href="https://github.com/features/copilot">GitHub Copilot</a></p>



<p><a href="https://timerdoro.com">Timerdoro</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.typingmind.com">TypingMind</a></p>



<p><a href="https://gemini.google.com/app">Gemini</a></p>



<p><a href="https://chatgpt.com">ChatGPT</a></p>



<p>Corey&#8217;s <a href="https://mexicantrain.online">Mexican Train game</a></p>



<p><a href="https://indydevdan.com/">IndyDevDan</a></p>



<p><a href="https://gemini.google/overview/image-generation/">Nano Banana</a></p>



<p><a href="https://seattlemag.com">Seattle Magazine</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.wpbeaverbuilder.com">Beaver Builder</a></p>



<p><a href="https://elementor.com">Elementor</a></p>



<p><a href="https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2025/11/introducing-the-wordpress-abilities-api/">Abilities API</a></p>



<p><a href="https://yoast.com">Yoast</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.advancedcustomfields.com/pro/">ACF</a></p>



<p><a href="https://metabox.io">Meta Box</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 14 Jan 2026 15:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:20;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Matt: Remembering Jesus Ornelas";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151082";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/remembering-jesus-ornelas/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:2494:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Today we honored <a href="https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/houston-tx/jesus-ornelas-12694130">the passing of Jesus Ornelas</a>, the father of my friend Rene, whom I&#8217;ve known for 28 years now. At the service outpouring of love expressed in words, music, and presence was so powerful. Alongside his biological sons, I said a few words, which are as follows.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">My memories of Mr. Ornelas begin with seeing him, without fail, drive Rene halfway across town twice a day to attend HSPVA to support his artistic calling, even though his own predilection was for handicraft. The tireless devotion of a father working to create a better life for his son.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I remember fondly when we would gather at Woodlawn, three houses on the same street, his sly smile and contentment seeing all of his family so close together. Gosh, looking back, we were so poor, but only in money. We were rich in love and family. My memories of those times are not what we lacked, but the abundance of what we had together, which was time, friendship, and some pretty darn good food.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Mrs. Ornelas, your love and devotion to your husband through these twenty one years of dementia is an inspiration to us all who love a partner and a testament to the human spirit. Su amor y devoción hacia su esposo a lo largo de estos veinte uno años de demencia son una inspiración para todos nosotros que amamos a una pareja y un testimonio del espíritu humano.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">To Jesse, Eddie, and Rene, I will say that how you live as men is a testament to the example your father set. I can’t imagine how proud he must be looking down at this room, seeing how he came from such challenging conditions in Mexico to build a life for you all here in Houston and see every generation grow and prosper even more. Rene, I hope <a href="https://ma.tt/chuck/">our fathers</a> are together, cracking a beer and smiling as they look down on our lives.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Though his corporal form is no longer with us, everyone here will keep him alive by remembering and embodying his best qualities. We don’t need a bracelet to remind us What Would Jesus Do in those invisible acts of service for loved ones.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">May his memory be a blessing to all of us, and let our actions, seen and unseen, honor his legacy.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 14 Jan 2026 04:30:16 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:21;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:80:"Open Channels FM: Do the Woo Live with Matt Mullenweg Kicks Off January 14, 2026";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114095";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:86:"https://openchannels.fm/do-the-woo-live-with-matt-mullenweg-kicks-off-january-14-2026/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:167:"On January 14, 2026, at 15:00 UTC, the Do the Woo podcast returns live with hosts Katie Keith and James Kemp, featuring Matt Mullenweg discussing WooCommerce's future.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 13 Jan 2026 13:55:51 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:22;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:94:"Open Channels FM: Making Accessibility Fun and Brain-Friendly for Web Developers and Designers";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=114100";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:101:"https://openchannels.fm/making-accessibility-fun-and-brain-friendly-for-web-developers-and-designers/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:193:"In this episode, Anne Bovelett chats with Gehirngerecht founders Nina Jameson and Tobias Roppelt, discussing their mission to promote digital accessibility through engaging workshops and tools.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 13 Jan 2026 12:22:34 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:23;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:20:"Matt: Shorter Speech";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151076";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:37:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/shorter-speech/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:898:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One of the great WordPress blogs is <a href="https://quoteinvestigator.com/">Quote Investigator.</a> In their investigation into the original source of <a href="https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/04/28/shorter-letter/">&#8220;If I had more time, I would have written a shorter letter,&#8221;</a> I came across this great variation from Woodrow Wilson on the amount of time he spent preparing speeches.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">“That depends on the length of the speech,” answered the President. “If it is a ten-minute speech it takes me all of two weeks to prepare it; if it is a half-hour speech it takes me a week; if I can talk as long as I want to it requires no preparation at all. I am ready now.”</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So true.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 13 Jan 2026 07:47:53 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:24;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Matt: Matt 4.2";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151053";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/matt-4-2/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5175:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s that time of the year again for a new version release. Forty-two is a fun number, of course, famous from <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Hitchhikers-Guide-Galaxy-Douglas-Adams-ebook/dp/B000XUBC2C?tag=photomatt08-20" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">The Hitchhiker&#8217;s Guide to the Galaxy</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;m in Miami, where I&#8217;m attending a conference by <a href="https://www.wurman.com/">Richard Saul Wurman</a>. I decided that it would be a great way to fill my brain on my birthday. Since New Year’s, I’ve been in warm climates and had lots of dips in the ocean. Had a small birthday dinner a few days ago and my friends <a href="https://x.com/photomatt/status/2010395993343410561">surprised me with a beautiful “HappyBdayMattic” cake</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This last year was particularly challenging, especially at the beginning. However, it just kept getting better, and particularly WordCamp US in August was inspiring. The warmth and support of the WordPress community pulled me out of the funk I had been in. It was also when I kicked off the habit of daily blogging, which led to 2025 being the highest number of words (34.7k) I’ve posted since 2004! I traveled 209k miles, about a third lower than last year, spending longer stretches in 45 cities and 16 countries.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One of my biggest lessons of the year was learning how to ask for help. I&#8217;m usually the person others come to, and I carry a lot of responsibility on my shoulders from my friends and loved ones, and for the companies and communities I&#8217;m lucky enough to be part of. I&#8217;ve had some bad experiences asking for help in the past, as well. Now, how I see it is that it might not always work, but if you don’t ask for help, you also don’t give people the chance to step up. This year, the support of several friends got me through some really tough spots.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A joy of this year was seeing my godchildren grow up, close friends starting families, and the <a href="https://audrey.co/scholars/">Audrey Scholars</a> program. There’s a Walt Disney quote I just found out about that I love: “I do not make films primarily for children. I make them for the child in all of us, whether we be six or sixty.” Kids can&#8217;t help but remind you how important it is to maintain that childlike sense of curiosity.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A random new thing I&#8217;ve adopted this year is coconut water. I’ve been trying to hydrate with electrolytes, especially first thing in the morning, and it’s a great natural source of minerals.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">My main goals this year are to keep up daily writing, post some of my archive photos, finally visit Rome and bring my family, swim more, and be the best leader for Automattic and the WordPress community through the incredible changes and opportunities of the AI era.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Even though I have several decades of history now, I find myself looking forward far more than back. Great words to live by I just learned from <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Katzenberg">Jeffrey Katzenberg</a>, apparently originally from <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Ivester">Doug Ivester</a>.</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Never let your memories be greater than your dreams.</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">That said, it is a funny time to revisit <a href="https://ma.tt/2006/01/matt-22/">my original version-number birthday post, 2.2</a>, which is exactly 20 years old now.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I wish everyone a wonderful 2026!</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">All birthday posts: <a href="https://ma.tt/2003/01/bday/">19</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2004/01/so-im-20/">20</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2005/01/hot-barely-legal-matt/">21</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2006/01/matt-22/">22</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2007/01/twenty-three/">23</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2008/01/twenty-four/">24</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2009/01/twenty-five/">25</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2010/01/twenty-six/">26</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2011/01/twenty-seven/">27</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2012/01/twenty-eight/">28</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2013/01/twenty-nine/">29</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2014/01/matt-3-0/">30</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2015/01/thirty-one/">31</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2016/01/thirty-two/">32</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2017/01/thirty-three/">33</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2018/01/thirty-four/">34</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2019/01/thirty-five/">35</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2020/01/thirty-six/">36</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2021/01/thirty-seven/">37</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2022/01/thirty-eight/">38</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2023/01/thirty-nine/">39</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2024/01/forty/">40</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2025/01/forty-one/">41</a>, <a href="https://ma.tt/2026/01/matt-4-2/">42</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sun, 11 Jan 2026 18:54:22 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:25;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:25:"Matt: Classical Accordian";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151049";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:42:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/classical-accordian/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1492:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So my new obsession is a Ukrainian-born musician, <a href="http://www.hrustevich.com/en/">Alexander Hrustevich</a>, who plays a type of chromatic Russian accordion <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayan_(accordion)">called a Bayan</a>. He plays incredible transcriptions of classical pieces, replicating the parts of an entire orchestra with just two hands. If you&#8217;re familiar with Vivaldi&#8217;s Four Seasons, you know the Presto for Summer is one of the most challenging parts. Listen to this, it&#8217;s just a bit under three minutes.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-embed alignwide is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">

</div></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SE222v1eyM">Here&#8217;s the 14 minute version</a> which is beautiful to hear the dynamic range that&#8217;s possible. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;ve always loved the sound of a big pipe organ and the resonance and feel of the bayan. It is really quite remarkable, and it&#8217;s been very enjoyable having a playlist of Alexander&#8217;s music in the background as I work. This <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jDXkixRjYOg">Bach-Fantasia and Fugue in G minor BWV 542 is also quite good</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">My 42<sup>nd</sup> birthday is tomorrow! Working on a post for y&#8217;all.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sun, 11 Jan 2026 04:20:36 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:26;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Matt: Mad Ones";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151045";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/mad-ones/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:487:"<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The only people for me are the mad ones. The ones who are mad to live, mad to talk, mad to be saved, desirous of everything at the same time, the ones who never yawn or say a commonplace thing, but burn, burn, burn, like fabulous yellow roman candles exploding like spiders across the stars.</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">— Jack Kerouac, On the Road</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 10 Jan 2026 07:57:28 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:27;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:15:"Matt: Small Hit";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151039";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/small-hit/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1146:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The NY Times has a <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2026/01/08/technology/apple-ceo-tim-cook-john-ternus.html?unlocked_article_code=1.DFA.Qm0v.SxztBxvFrAF-&amp;smid=url-share">profile of John Ternus as a possible successor to Tim Cook</a> that has a number of ridiculous lines; it&#8217;s quite bad, but this is one of my favorites:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Apple has had many small hits under Mr. Cook and continues to be one of the most profitable companies in the world. </p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Goodness! I would love to have a hit someday as the small as the ones Apple has had under Cook. <a href="https://www.theverge.com/2020/2/5/21125565/apple-watch-sales-2019-swiss-watch-market-estimates-outsold">Apple Watch sells more than the entire Swiss watch industry</a>. Airpods are the most popular headphones in the world. <a href="https://finance.yahoo.com/news/apple-richer-4-countries-164523140.html">Their market cap is bigger than the GDP of all but four countries in the world</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 09 Jan 2026 05:45:44 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:28;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:60:"Open Channels FM: Eight Years and 1.53 Million Seconds Later";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113805";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:67:"https://openchannels.fm/eight-years-and-1-53-million-seconds-later/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:137:"With enough words spoken to fill the Harry Potter series three times over, BobWP shares some fun numbers on this 8th year of the podcast.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 08 Jan 2026 14:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:29;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:30:"Matt: Beeper &amp;amp; Day One";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151033";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:37:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/beeper-day-one/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:447:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Pankil Shah writes <a href="https://www.makeuseof.com/use-beeper-all-in-one-messaging-app/">I replaced WhatsApp, Telegram, and Messenger with this one app</a>. (It&#8217;s <a href="https://www.beeper.com/">Beeper</a>.) And <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-journaling-apps/">Wirecutter picks the 3 best journaling apps of 2026</a>. (It&#8217;s <a href="https://dayoneapp.com/">Day One</a>.)</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 08 Jan 2026 05:37:01 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:30;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:111:"WPTavern: #199 – Brian Coords on WooCommerce’s Challenges and Innovations in a Changing WordPress Landscape";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=202139";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:122:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/199-brian-coords-on-woocommerces-challenges-and-innovations-in-a-changing-wordpress-landscape";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:55972:"<details>Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress, the people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, WooCommerce&#8217;s challenges and innovations in a changing WordPress landscape.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today, we have Brian Coords.</p>



<p>Brian has been active in the WordPress space for over a decade, starting out in agencies, building and managing websites, and is now a developer advocate at WooCommerce, bridging the gap between woo&#8217;s internal engineers and the wider developer community. His journey includes being a high school teacher, working for nonprofits, and writing for the WP Tavern before landing his role at Automatic.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in where WooCommerce and WordPress itself are headed, this episode will help as Brian shares insights on WordPress&#8217;s evolving focus, the importance of embracing AI, and how a slower pace of change can be a strength in any open source ecosystem.</p>



<p>He talks about the massive rebrand at WooCommerce, the challenges and opportunities in competing with SaaS giants, and the unique developer relations role that balances his technical experience with communication skills.</p>



<p>We get into how the team Brian works with supports developers and agencies with documentation, office hours, and feedback loops, and how WooCommerce&#8217;s global Reach makes for a complex but thriving ecosystem.</p>



<p>There&#8217;s discussion about recent marketing efforts, the realities of open source support, and the surprising diversity of WooCommerce users worldwide.</p>



<p>Towards the end, we look ahead to what&#8217;s coming for WooCommerce, which is greater integration with block based editing in WordPress Core, major investments in AI to streamline store management, and the future landscape of online shopping.</p>



<p>If you want to hear how WooCommerce and WordPress are responding to a rapidly changing tech environment, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Brian Coords.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast by Brian Cords. Hello Brian.</p>



<p>[00:03:09] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Hey, thank you for having me.</p>



<p>[00:03:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You&#8217;re very welcome. I have a lot of respect for Brian. I&#8217;m hoping that by the end of this podcast you also have a lot of respect for Brian.</p>



<p>Brian has been kind of part of my browsing on the internet and WordPress journey, I want to say, for five or six years, something along those lines, I&#8217;ve known about you and followed your stuff. Pretty much everything that you&#8217;ve done. I&#8217;m really pleased that you&#8217;ve come on the podcast to talk to me today about WooCommerce.</p>



<p>Those people that don&#8217;t know Brian, I&#8217;m going to give you an opportunity just to introduce yourself. So would you mind, I know it&#8217;s a banal question, but little potted bio, couple of minutes about your WordPress journey, or you can talk about the guitars in the background if you prefer.</p>



<p>[00:03:47] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, nobody wants to hear me talk about or play a guitar.</p>



<p>Yeah, so I&#8217;m Brian. I&#8217;m a developer advocate at WooCommerce, so I work on sort of the community side, bridging the gap between the community of developers that build on top of WooCommerce or build stores with WooCommerce, and then our internal engineers and make sure that communication channel stays open.</p>



<p>But before that, I spent probably 10 years working at a WordPress agency. So building sites, managing team of developers, doing all the kind of work that a WordPress agency does and sort of lived through that time from early page builders all the way until the last few years in the rise of the block editor. So I kind of have that personal experience of what it&#8217;s like just selling WordPress websites for a living.</p>



<p>And before that, my career went through a whole bunch of different places. Was a high school teacher, worked at nonprofit, all sorts of different things. So happy to be at Automattic, where I get to sort of teach, sort of build websites and just hang out with people.</p>



<p>[00:04:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I had no idea that you were a high school teacher. I have enormous respect for anybody who takes on a role in public education. So that&#8217;s interesting.</p>



<p>So I&#8217;m going to segue a little bit. This question&#8217;s just occurred to me from everything that you&#8217;ve just said, given that you&#8217;ve been in the space of WordPress for the last 10 years, more.</p>



<p>So it&#8217;s a bit of a peculiar one, but are you as excited about it as a project as you were, let&#8217;s say, 10 years ago? Do you still think that it&#8217;s got the future that you probably thought it had a decade ago?</p>



<p>[00:05:13] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean that&#8217;s a good question. I would say overall, yes, I am excited about it. I think that if there&#8217;s any concerns about WordPress or things to be not excited or scared about, it has nothing to do with WordPress and has everything to do with the internet as we know it, and AI and everything changing and economics and all these other sorts of things.</p>



<p>The project itself, it seems to, I would say over the last year, really narrowed its focus on what it thinks its role is. And I think it&#8217;s adopted the AI change really well, and that&#8217;s made me very excited. I think it understands, you know, I think some of the things about WordPress is sometimes the day to day, you feel like the decisions are a little confusing, but if you look at it over the long term, it&#8217;s half the internet. So clearly the decisions tend to work out in the long run. So I think I still have faith in the project.</p>



<p>[00:06:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I find that the slow pace of change is actually one of its greatest strengths, but it takes an awful lot of mulling it over and sitting down and being calm with yourself to think, why hasn&#8217;t it got all these features? Why is it not keeping track of this, that, and the other thing that&#8217;s going on on the internet? But broadly, when you look back at any 2, 3, 4, 5 year period, I think usually that was the right decision, although it feels like it might not have been the right decision when that moment is passing.</p>



<p>[00:06:32] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, there&#8217;s a lot of people who look at a lot of decisions, like say the block editor and they say, well, why didn&#8217;t they just take Elementor and stick that in Core and stuff, you know? Regardless of the fact that Elementor is a successful business that probably doesn&#8217;t want their software stolen and taken into Core. But I think if you look at it now you, a lot of those decisions would&#8217;ve seemed a little crazy.</p>



<p>And the fact that it doesn&#8217;t throw everything and that it just throws the kind of basic foundational layer, and then it allows something like Elementor or any of these other page builders to be successful businesses and do their thing. The fact that it empowers that to exist, or it empowers all the other builders to exist, or it empowers WooCommerce or all these other plugins to exist, is a testament to the fact that it didn&#8217;t try to be everything to everyone, and it just kind of stayed in its lane as a foundational layer. And so I think it&#8217;s, it doesn&#8217;t feel like it&#8217;s doing that much, but it&#8217;s working out well for everyone in the ecosystem.</p>



<p>[00:07:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We don&#8217;t want to get into this, in fact, I&#8217;m going to insist that we don&#8217;t get into this. But I think it is a really interesting time with the tsunami of things that are going on with AI to see how a CMS can cope with the future with AI as a possible tool to do everything. To do every single thing that would be required in building a website. It&#8217;ll be interesting to see how the project goes.</p>



<p>And, you know, there&#8217;s a lot going on there, and I think this is one of those moments where we have to just sort of sit down and be calm and see what the teams are doing and just have faith. I think at least that&#8217;s my position anyway. So you don&#8217;t have to respond to that if you don&#8217;t want to.</p>



<p>[00:08:00] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I&#8217;m just overwhelmed by AI sometimes on my day-to-day work. And so I do have to remind myself the only thing you can do is sit and go slow and just see what happens, because I don&#8217;t think we can predict it.</p>



<p>[00:08:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> No, I think you would be right. So when you joined Automattic, how long ago was that now? Roughly.</p>



<p>[00:08:16] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Almost a year. Early this year.</p>



<p>[00:08:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. Did you have intuitions at that point that WooCommerce was where you were going to end up? Was that where you were heading or is that just sort of serendipity?</p>



<p>[00:08:26] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> No, well, not really. When I first started, I kind of was all over the place. I was here at WP Tavern for a few weeks as part of that trial writing project. I did some work with wordpress.com and kind of got to see behind the scenes of that, and I had friends at all different parts of the company.</p>



<p>What I knew that I wanted to do was developer advocacy or what some people call developer relations. I knew that that&#8217;s where the role that I wanted, but I don&#8217;t think I would&#8217;ve thought of Woo. But then when the opportunity came up, there was a lot that I really liked about WooCommerce that I thought it had such a strong idea of what the product is, who the customers are. They had just done that rebrand where they had the new logo and the new colours and the new design. It felt like the whole company was kind of just doing really cool things.</p>



<p>So once the opportunity came up, I&#8217;ll be honest, I didn&#8217;t build a lot of WooCommerce stores before I joined. So other than being kind of afraid of learning all of this stuff it was, definitely it made sense once the opportunity came up.</p>



<p>[00:09:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. With the sort of WooCommerce side of things, are you happy with that move? You know, you&#8217;ve got your feet onto the table now and you feel that&#8217;s where you&#8217;re going to stay, I guess, for the near future.</p>



<p>[00:09:32] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, definitely. What&#8217;s interesting about Automattic is over the last year, since I joined it&#8217;s been kind of a turbulent year at the company, but one of the things they&#8217;ve been really trying to do is centralise things and be more consistent.</p>



<p>So in WooCommerce, there&#8217;s a lot of stuff that WooCommerce would go off and do, and it would be kind of different from say, Core WordPress or wordpress.com or WordPress VIP, or all these different kind of parts of WordPress inside of Automattic.</p>



<p>And over the last year, they&#8217;ve tried to kind of centralise and say, why do we have three different plugins that are doing similar things. Or why can&#8217;t we streamline all of this or have everybody working on the same stuff. So WooCommerce has been doing a lot of work really towards Core WordPress, and making the Core WordPress experience better so that WooCommerce can use those tools instead of doing it.</p>



<p>So in a weird way, I&#8217;ve actually gotten to collaborate a lot more with some of the other sides of the company and people who do this job but are not in WooCommerce. There&#8217;s a whole team that has people like, let&#8217;s see, Ryan Welcher, Justin Tadlock, Jonathan Bossenger, that whole group. So it&#8217;s kind of nice. We&#8217;re in our little Woo bubble too, but then I get to work with them and learn from them, and work on Core WordPress too. So it&#8217;s kind of, it&#8217;s been nice. We&#8217;ve kind of brought everyone a little closer, I think.</p>



<p>[00:10:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It is kind of interesting over the last 18 months or so, having spoken to quite a few Automatticians, it does feel like the landscape inside the company has changed. I don&#8217;t think we need to go into that, but it is interesting you saying that, because feels there was some realignment and moving around, and decisions about which teams were going to collaborate more with which teams. And that seems like what you are saying as well, so there we go.</p>



<p>So on the WooCommerce side of things, you mentioned that you are a developer, well, you said developer advocate, developer relations, kind of the same term really. For anybody listening to this who doesn&#8217;t know what that is, basically, what is the job contract that you&#8217;ve got there? What is your role?</p>



<p>[00:11:19] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, so we cover a few different things. From a high level, it really is, we&#8217;re there to help developers inside the company know what developers outside the company are doing and vice versa. So if you&#8217;re building stores with WooCommerce or you&#8217;re building extensions to sell in the marketplace, you know, like plugins that add-on to WooCommerce, or you&#8217;re working at one of our partner companies like Stripe and Google and Snapchat and Reddit and all these companies that integrate with WooCommerce, our job is to make sure that you have access to good documentation and good examples.</p>



<p>We make sure that when a new version of WooCommerce comes out, which is every five weeks, that we publish all the release notes, and make sure that that information is, you know what&#8217;s coming, what&#8217;s changing, what&#8217;s different. We do some video content, we do some office hours hangouts in a community Slack, we keep an eye on the repo for community contributions. So it&#8217;s a lot of different things, but it&#8217;s really just, at the end of the day like, hey, does this help developers on either side of the wall move forward basically?</p>



<p>[00:12:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you have to be technical in order to carry out your role, or would there be any scope for somebody in your position to be non-technical? Let&#8217;s say, you&#8217;re a marketing person or something like that. Is there any aspect of that to it? Or is everybody doing your kind of role a technical person with a background in coding and what have you?</p>



<p>[00:12:37] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> It&#8217;s a unique role and it&#8217;s kind of a long debate inside of the developer relations community is, does this team go in an engineering department or does it go in the marketing department?</p>



<p>So for example, at Automattic there is another developer relations team that handles a lot of that WordPress Core stuff that I was talking about, and they&#8217;re kind of a little more attached to engineering.</p>



<p>For our team, we&#8217;re part of the WooCommerce marketing department. So of course that&#8217;s going to change a little bit of what we work on, how our decisions are made, that sort of stuff. I don&#8217;t think it changes that much, and in some ways it gives us access to a lot of cool stuff like their design team, which is really nice to have.</p>



<p>So it goes both ways, but you really have to be a unique person where you have to be a good communicator, and you have to have some amount of technical experience. You kind of really need both, because at the end of the day we look at a new version of WooCommerce and it&#8217;s, oh, we changed this API and it&#8217;s going to affect developers in this way. It&#8217;s like, I need to be able to communicate that. I need to be able to understand it. I need to be able to know what the implications of that are. So it&#8217;s kind of both.</p>



<p>[00:13:35] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you produce this content in multiple languages or is it kind of English first and then it gets translated in some other department, or indeed does it get translated into another language, do you know?</p>



<p>[00:13:45] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> No, I think pretty much English first. There is a lot of stuff that is translated for, I would say on the, what we call like the merchant side, sort of like the user side. So if you&#8217;re looking for extensions in the marketplace, that&#8217;s available in a lot of different languages. The software itself is translated, but the developer stuff is pretty much English only. Because we&#8217;re a really small team. Like when we look at, there&#8217;s only, at any time, three or four of us working on this for software that&#8217;s on whatever, 8% of the internet, so English only for now.</p>



<p>[00:14:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, the reason I ask, maybe you were present at State of the Word where Matt went through a bunch of statistics. And it was curious to see, for the first time, so WordPress more broadly, not WooCommerce specifically, but WordPress more broadly is now used on non-English websites more than it is on English websites. And so if we&#8217;d have had this interview a week ago, that question probably would not have arisen.</p>



<p>But I&#8217;m guessing that WooCommerce goes along for the ride there. I&#8217;m guessing it&#8217;s not just on English speaking websites, I&#8217;m guessing WooCommerce is just literally in more or less every part of the world, in every locale and every jurisdiction. There are people who are using your code, but probably not speaking English.</p>



<p>[00:14:52] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> That&#8217;s definitely the case. So we have a free Slack, that&#8217;s the WooCommerce Community Slack, and it&#8217;s more than 30,000 people in there. It&#8217;s all over. You can definitely tell that people are coming from all over the world.</p>



<p>One of the weird things about e-commerce is it&#8217;s very geographically based because the currency matters. The payment provider that handles the payments matters. The shipping options matter. So there are certain places where you can only use WooCommerce because you want to use the custom bank payment provider that&#8217;s only in this one country, that sort of stuff.</p>



<p>So because of how diverse the types of integrations you would need, yeah, WooCommerce is very global. That was one of the things that really surprised me was finding out that, oh yeah, there&#8217;s payment providers you&#8217;ve never heard of, and banks you&#8217;ve never heard of, and shipping companies you&#8217;ve never heard of and they need to integrate.</p>



<p>[00:15:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And tax. So much tax, I&#8217;m sure.</p>



<p>[00:15:43] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Oh my, yeah.</p>



<p>[00:15:45] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;m sure it gets brutal. I don&#8217;t know exactly when the time was, but it feels like about, I&#8217;m going to say 18 months or something, when Woo underwent a fairly significant rebranding. So from a marketing point of view, the logo changed, the colour palette changed, the website changed.</p>



<p>I didn&#8217;t really notice until that moment when it did change that it needed to have changed, if you know what I mean? It just always looked fine to me. But the moment it changed, I kind of got a sense that, oh, okay, this is real now. We&#8217;ve kind of identified that there are these SaaS players, so you know, we don&#8217;t need to name them, we all know who they are, where you pay your monthly fee and you get a shop and yada, yada, yada. But I don&#8217;t know if that&#8217;s a part of the roadmap.</p>



<p>And summing it up as more serious, obviously that&#8217;s trivial and a bit, really not the right term, but do you know what I mean? It feels like WooCommerce has, I don&#8217;t know, grown up a little bit over the last 18 months and realises the, I don&#8217;t want to use the word fight, but I&#8217;m going to, the fight that it&#8217;s in with the SaaS players.</p>



<p>[00:16:41] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I think that was the intention of that rebrand. So I think the goal was to go from saying, hey, we&#8217;re a WordPress plugin that lets you sell things. To saying, we&#8217;re an e-commerce solution, and we happen to run on WordPress. It&#8217;s kind of just a different framing.</p>



<p>But one of the big things is a huge investment in marketing. And so the marketing team has gotten really big. We have a pretty killer CMO. There&#8217;s a ton of investment into different types of ads and demand generation and leads and all this stuff that I kind of don&#8217;t understand, a lot of like acronyms that are thrown around that I don&#8217;t fully track. But it&#8217;s a huge investment to basically reposition WooCommerce as something that feels a bit more modern and, not a SaaS, but kind of can sit there next to the SaaS. So when a company is looking at the options and they&#8217;re saying, oh, do we want to use Magento or BigCommerce or Shopify or WooCommerce, we look like we belong there, and it looks like it&#8217;s an option.</p>



<p>[00:17:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s kind of curious that there&#8217;s, real money has to be spent on this endeavor because, I was in London just a few weeks ago and I walked onto the Tube, you know, the underground train network. And the platform that I was on, the first thing that I saw when I walked onto the platform was this huge ad for Shopify. And then I looked left and I looked right and it was Shopify ads all the way down. They&#8217;d obviously, I mean I can only imagine how expensive that real estate is.</p>



<p>But the same thing would be true on radio, on TV, online, on print. These companies have gigantic, I mean truly eye watering budgets. And I don&#8217;t know if the WooCommerce side has to be a bit more guerrilla or if you also have a fairly gigantic budget. I don&#8217;t know if you&#8217;re able to peel any of that back. It sounds like marketing&#8217;s not really your thing, but maybe there&#8217;s bit of interest there.</p>



<p>[00:18:25] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean since we&#8217;re in the team, we see a lot of it. We did an event earlier this year where our marketing team walked through some of this stuff, so I can maybe give you a link to put in the show notes. We kind of wrote it, did a write up about that very concept. Because we get asked that a lot, why am I seeing Squarespace and Shopify ads everywhere? And it&#8217;s, you know, obviously if you look at the size of the companies, it&#8217;s a fact, like a whole factor difference, like we&#8217;re not anywhere near the size of those companies.</p>



<p>And part of the issue is that you don&#8217;t just go to woocommerce.com and hand us money, you know? The Core plugin is free so the way we monetise is a lot different. You can run it anywhere. You can, a lot of people that run WooCommerce, they&#8217;re not paying us in any way because they&#8217;re using their own payment providers and those sorts of things.</p>



<p>So it is definitely more of a challenge. But this past year, that&#8217;s why the rebrand started, that&#8217;s why they&#8217;ve been investing in it. And it&#8217;s been kind of cool. There&#8217;s a lot of podcast ads that we&#8217;ve been running and LinkedIn ads and all these sorts of things. And part of the issue too is that our target market is just much more narrowly defined, and so WooCommerce is much more customisable. It&#8217;s extensible. You can do whatever you want with it. And that&#8217;s just a different value proposition then you would say to somebody who just wants the easy SaaS solution.</p>



<p>So it&#8217;s a lot of things, but it&#8217;s kind of just knowing who we want and targeting directly to them. And so you probably won&#8217;t see ads on the Tube at any time, but for certain areas you&#8217;re going to start seeing really targeted ads for people at the places that would actually really benefit from having WooCommerce.</p>



<p>[00:19:51] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> That was the thought that I had about seeing the Shopify, in this case, ad on the London underground was just how much the audience, the eyeballs that were actually staring at that had no interest in it at all. And so almost like the bottomless pit of money that they must have to throw at these things. And obviously it sounds like you are targeting people.</p>



<p>Are you kind of like riding on the coattails of WordPress in general? In other words, are you targeting existing WordPress users in the hope that they&#8217;ll think, okay, yeah, we&#8217;ve got a WordPress site, now it&#8217;s time to upgrade to WooCommerce, or is it a bit more scatter gone, you need a website, you need e-commerce, we&#8217;re your solution?</p>



<p>[00:20:26] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean that&#8217;s an interesting question because I think when WordPress was growing, it was a lot easier to target inside of WordPress, and I think now we&#8217;re seeing all the big companies reevaluate that. So I would say the ads that I see a lot are, you know, Hostinger, Elementor, wordpress.com. And I think a lot of them are realising now, you know, we need to target outside.</p>



<p>So for example, WooCommerce this year, we go to all the WordCamps, but we started going to e-commerce expos that are trade shows that are not anything to do with WordPress. It&#8217;s just for people in the commerce industry and partnering with companies that are in the marketing and commerce side. And so, yeah, it really is about branching out and finding those new areas.</p>



<p>I think all WordPress companies are going to kind of have to start facing that as well because WordPress is 43% of the web. It&#8217;s like, how much bigger realistically can you get, once we pass 50%? I mean that&#8217;s, it&#8217;s pretty hard to grow at that point.</p>



<p>[00:21:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Did you attend any of those events? The sort of expos for e-commerce more generally?</p>



<p>[00:21:23] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> No.</p>



<p>[00:21:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I was going to follow up with a question about whether or not there was brand recognition. At those events, if you&#8217;ve got a WooCommerce stall, I was curious as to know what proportion of the public would walk past a WooCommerce sign and go, yeah, yeah, I know what that is, I&#8217;ve got complete familiarity with it. I feel like some of the SaaS ones, maybe they&#8217;ve done that job so well that that brand recognition is there, but maybe that work still needs to be done on the Woo side, I&#8217;m not sure.</p>



<p>[00:21:49] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> There&#8217;s definitely not going to be the same level of brand awareness. I think, like you said, like guerrilla marketing is definitely part of it. One of the things they do at these is they&#8217;ll find a local store that uses Woo and use them for swag. So they&#8217;ll get really good swag. They did like homemade, like embroidery things and all this sort of stuff. And so they end up getting very popular because of how cool the swag is, and how meaningful it is, and it supports a local merchant. But yeah, it&#8217;s a big battle, you know, to raise that brand awareness.</p>



<p>[00:22:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, let&#8217;s just turn a bit more to your Dev Rel stuff. And you were saying that, well, I don&#8217;t need to repeat what you said. You said a little while ago, who it is that you are interfacing with out in the real world.</p>



<p>How does that work? Like, do you just sort of put content out there and tutorials out there and videos out there and change logs out there, and kind of hope that the people that need it get to see it somehow? Or is there more of an endeavor of, I don&#8217;t know, providing the bat phone, for want of a better word, to agencies and people so that they can communicate directly with you? How does that whole thing work?</p>



<p>[00:22:48] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, so it&#8217;s interesting because there&#8217;s definitely different audiences that we have. So we have developers who are building extensions and are, you know, they&#8217;re selling WooCommerce plugins basically. And so we have them that we need to communicate with. And then we have the agencies and the agencies are building WooCommerce stores for people. So they&#8217;re setting up WooCommerce.</p>



<p>And those two audiences, they both need some of the same information, but they also need a lot of different information. And so we&#8217;ve kind of seen a lot of change over the last year.</p>



<p>Automattic has launched a program called Automattic for Agencies. I&#8217;m not sure if you&#8217;ve seen this. It&#8217;s kind of like an agency program where you sign up and you get access to extensions, you can get affiliate fees, you can get kickbacks on payments, volume, all that sort of stuff.</p>



<p>So that side has really, sort of owned the agency space. And so what&#8217;s nice is we can go to them with any new information. We could say, hey, just pass this along to your audience in your next newsletter, that sort of thing. But really, if we want to have the conversations, I would say the Slack is the most common and we never lack for feedback. We get plenty of feedback. We do a monthly office hours in Slack or sometimes on Zoom, where developers will come and share their questions, that sort of thing. So we get tons of feedback. But yeah, it&#8217;s really just about being present there, being present on Twitter. We&#8217;re ramping up YouTube, because YouTube&#8217;s really important right now. And we&#8217;re just, like I said, small team and trying to hit all of those different content areas.</p>



<p>[00:24:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> My sort of follow up question there really was going to be something about shouting into the void and I wondered if that, it was in fact what was happening. But it sounds from what you are saying is if, no, there is an actual loop there. You put stuff out and you get feedback. I mean I&#8217;m guessing, from the sounds of it, there&#8217;s maybe more feedback than you can actually cope with, which is intriguing. I had an intuition that would be the other way around.</p>



<p>[00:24:32] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean it definitely depends on, sometimes you get feedback that&#8217;s kind of the same. We know what people want, and we&#8217;re trying to work as fast as we can to make the changes that developers and the community want. And sometimes you put out a feature and it doesn&#8217;t resonate.</p>



<p>But generally when we do calls for testing of a new feature we&#8217;ll post, all right, we have a new feature coming, it&#8217;s in experimental mode, here&#8217;s how to turn it on and then let us know if it&#8217;s working for you, if it&#8217;s working with your plugin and stuff. We definitely have a pretty healthy group that will take the time to contribute back, let us know if things are working. I mean it&#8217;s an open source project. We get community pull requests. We get people, they need a feature, they build it and submit it and, you know, hopefully we merge it. And so the feedback loop is definitely there.</p>



<p>But if you&#8217;re, the thing that I&#8217;ve learned about WordPress is that I think it&#8217;s like an iceberg and like 90% of the WordPress community, they&#8217;re not really listening to WordPress content, and they&#8217;re not listening, they&#8217;re not even tracking WordPress in general. And so I think there&#8217;s probably a much broader community that we&#8217;re not getting access to, and they&#8217;re just living their daily lives and just building stores and stuff. And so I would love to find more of those groups. I think Facebook is probably a place that we haven&#8217;t even touched yet, and I&#8217;m sure a lot of them are there. There&#8217;s definitely work to be done there.</p>



<p>[00:25:46] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think that was maybe the piece that I was thinking. Is that Woo is the biggest solution out there. If memory serves, Woo is the biggest e-commerce platform out there. It kind of dwarfs all the others. I don&#8217;t even know if WooCommerce is bigger than the rest of them combined but, you know, it&#8217;s on that kind of level.</p>



<p>And yet, if you were to have a, I don&#8217;t know, a Shopify store or something, there is probably like a little submit feedback button in the UI somewhere, and you can talk to the support representatives, and they&#8217;ll have the answer specifically because they know exactly what the platform does.</p>



<p>But the jigsaw puzzle over on the Woo side is, yeah, it must be much more messy, much more kind of difficult to wrangle everything. You know, you&#8217;ve got people, end users who are using WooCommerce. You&#8217;ve got developers who are building plugins. You&#8217;ve got agencies who are building on behalf of clients. You&#8217;ve got people who are building rival things so you&#8217;re in direct competition with people in the plugin space who are building rivals to WooCommerce. It&#8217;s just, well, messy. But that&#8217;s open source, right?</p>



<p>[00:26:44] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> I mean that&#8217;s exactly what it is. You know, we have, you have WooCommerce support, right? And our support team is really great. Every time I go to a conference and one of our support engineers is there, I&#8217;m always pointing to them to answer all the questions because they know the product so deeply.</p>



<p>But if you imagine the, you know, most WooCommerce stores will come to us for support, but there&#8217;s no financial relationship. If they&#8217;re not using our hosting company or they&#8217;re not using Woo Payments, or they&#8217;re not using extensions that they bought in the marketplace, maybe they bought their extensions just off the internet or something, there&#8217;s a good chance they might not be paying us any money at all. And yet, you know, we&#8217;re going to support them and make sure that they&#8217;re having a good experience, because that&#8217;s kind of the goal of it. So it&#8217;s definitely a bit of the Wild West out there.</p>



<p>[00:27:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> There must be some kind of strange tension there as well. I mean, you&#8217;ve described it very eloquently and I think you&#8217;ve stepped around that beautifully, but that is a peculiar thing, isn&#8217;t it, that you would not have to deal with elsewhere? The fact that you may very well be dealing with rivals. You may well be dealing with people who are using up your time, but like you said, they have no relationship with you financially at all, but they built something, third party thing on top of the WooCommerce ecosystem, and I guess that&#8217;s just the broader philanthropic goal of something like WooCommerce. You&#8217;ve just got to step up and be there.</p>



<p>[00:28:00] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean I think wordpress.com probably has a lot of the same things because if you Google WordPress, you know, you&#8217;re probably going to end up on wordpress.com, even if you&#8217;re not their customer.</p>



<p>On the flip side though, you know, the benefit of being open source is that, like I said, we get community contributions. We get a lot of eyes on the software. A lot of people, they give us feedback, they give us code, they give us all sorts of things. So it is a bit of a trade off.</p>



<p>But I think it&#8217;s kind of worth it for the software to just exist freely and for everybody who runs on it, to always kind of know deep down that they own their store and they can do whatever they want with it, and they can put it wherever they want, and Automattic or WordPress or WooCommerce is never really going to take that away from them or take them down, you know?</p>



<p>[00:28:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I&#8217;d be curious to know what proportion of Woo kind of props up the broader WordPress project, if you know what I mean? I don&#8217;t think we need to go into that, and I don&#8217;t know if there&#8217;s any data out there anywhere, but there must be a lot of money sloshing around inside the WooCommerce ecosystem. It&#8217;d be interesting to know what proportion the broader WordPress ecosystem was was made up of just Woo stuff. That&#8217;d be an interesting thing to dig into.</p>



<p>[00:29:01] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> When I worked at an agency, the kind of rule was if you wanted to make money making websites, you did websites that made money. So e-commerce was a big part. People, you know, their website&#8217;s more critical to their business, so they&#8217;re going to be buying more plugins, they&#8217;re going to be paying more developers, they&#8217;re going to be using more tools. So I think that&#8217;s part of it. E-commerce isn&#8217;t the only way websites make money. There&#8217;s definitely a lot of other things, big publishers and that sort of stuff. But yeah, it&#8217;s definitely a big part of the community.</p>



<p>[00:29:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, big and not going anywhere. Speaking of going places though, what&#8217;s coming up in the near future? So when we&#8217;re recording this, it&#8217;s kind of the middle of December. I imagine this episode will hit in the beginning of 2026 at some point. Roughly around that kind of time, what&#8217;s the thinking? What are the, some of the top level items that people may not know about? What&#8217;s the stuff that you&#8217;re working on? Roadmap stuff, I guess.</p>



<p>[00:29:46] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I would say the big things that I&#8217;ve seen that are really the big focus right now is, number one is really making WooCommerce closer to WordPress Core, which means making WordPress Core a little better. So WooCommerce has been pretty ahead of the curve of transitioning to blocks, using block templates and block based everything. So, I mean you can do your whole WooCommerce store in the block editor, which gives you a lot of kind of design freedom. But that means if we need something better in the block editor, we&#8217;ve got to commit that up to the block editor and make Gutenberg better. So there&#8217;s a lot of work to improve a lot of stuff inside of Gutenberg so that your WooCommerce experience is better.</p>



<p>So that&#8217;s been a lot of the focus. And so we&#8217;re, there&#8217;s a lot of cool stuff coming around just new blocks, new block designs, patterns, things you can do to really customise the visual aspects of your store. And then the second big thing, I think that is taking up everybody&#8217;s mental space is AI. You can&#8217;t not talk about it. So it&#8217;s, that&#8217;s the other piece.</p>



<p>[00:30:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Okay, despite the fact that it consumes all the air in the room, it is so fascinating. Do you have any insight into some of the things that may be on the agenda for a WooCommerce store owner in the near future? The kind of things that you are thinking of. Even if they&#8217;re just aspirational for a WooCommerce store owner. I&#8217;d be curious to hear your thoughts on that.</p>



<p>[00:31:01] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I think there&#8217;s two different aspects of it that are really going to be important. One is managing your store. So we have right now in beta what&#8217;s called an MCP server in Woo. And what it basically lets you do is open up, you know, ChatGPT or Claude or something and say, log into my WooCommerce store and update all my products, put them on sale, change out the pictures, write better copy for them. It kind of lets AI log into your store and do things for you.</p>



<p>And so that&#8217;s in beta right now, and it&#8217;s pretty cool. I&#8217;ve been using it. It&#8217;s pretty neat. I&#8217;ve been setting up some demo stores for people, and I just go, all right, log in and make me, you know, 50 fake sweaters with a nice description in different colours. And it does it. It&#8217;s kind of mind blowing.</p>



<p>[00:31:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you trust it at this point? And I don&#8217;t mean, you know, the broader kind of debate about AI and whether it&#8217;s trustworthy. I mean, in terms of the store, you know, do you trust it to update all of the particular product lines and what have you, or update the images? Do you feel that if you&#8217;ve given that prompt, you can sort of sit back and go, okay, that is definitely being done?</p>



<p>[00:32:02] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> I haven&#8217;t done it on a live site, I will say. The nice thing too is you can have it ask you for permission every single time, and you can kind of see what it&#8217;s going to do. That obviously kind of ruins the whole efficiency part of it, but it can do that. So I think it&#8217;s early days.</p>



<p>But I do think, once you start interacting where you don&#8217;t have to actually log in and click a bunch of buttons, and you can just tell your computer what you want it to do, I think it&#8217;s going to be hard to come back from that. I think people are going to start expecting it. But I, yeah that&#8217;s, I mean we&#8217;re not doing that on the live, on any live sites, I hope not.</p>



<p>[00:32:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So that was half of it by the sounds of it. That was one of the threads. What was the other one?</p>



<p>[00:32:35] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> The other one, I think is about how people are going to be shopping in the future. And I think showing up, obviously all these chat companies, they need to make money, and we know that they&#8217;re going to start showing ads and they&#8217;re going to start wanting to do the same thing when you go to Google, and you look up something and it gives you some shopping recommendations and shows you some products you might want to buy and some ads. You know, we&#8217;re going to start seeing that in our chat bots and stuff.</p>



<p>And so I think it&#8217;s going to be important for people that have WooCommerce stores, they want their products to show up there, and they want their ads to show up there, and they want to make sure that people who are using AI to get product recommendations, which my wife does all the time, that they&#8217;re going to show up there. So I think that&#8217;s the other half of it.</p>



<p>[00:33:13] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. Do you know it&#8217;s really curious, the whole, what we might have called SEO, which is fast giving way, I think, to AI. It&#8217;s kind of curious. I think there&#8217;s like a whole section where the discovery of the website is going to be everything. So an example might be apparel. I don&#8217;t suppose anybody&#8217;s just going to buy a blouse or a shirt based upon some text that they saw in a chat bot, but getting to that page and saying, find me, locally to me, find me a place which sells, I don&#8217;t know, affordable shirts for work, or something along those lines. And have a recommendation, which gets you to the WooCommerce store.</p>



<p>But for more utilitarian things, just the stuff that you don&#8217;t really care about like, I want to buy a bunch of nuts and bolts, or hammers, or spanners, or whatever it may be, I feel like there&#8217;ll be a point where the store itself, obviously all of that commerce will take place in the store, but it will be invisible to you as a user. You&#8217;ll just tell the AI, buy these things, I need 50, or even just repeat the order from last month for these things, and it&#8217;ll just magically happen in the background. You&#8217;ll get a receipt via email, and WooCommerce will have handled it. The site will have been notified in some way, but you&#8217;ll have had no interaction. So it&#8217;s kind of scary, but interesting at the same time.</p>



<p>[00:34:23] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> I think one of the thing, I think Google&#8217;s the best example because I think WordPress and Google have this really symbiotic relationship because we make the websites and they provide the traffic. And I think it&#8217;s been good for both of them. They want a bunch of websites to send people to, and we want them sending people to our websites. And so I think Google&#8217;s a great example.</p>



<p>But they&#8217;ve had product recommendations that you can connect to your WooCommerce store, you know, for a while now. It&#8217;s kind of in some ways not really that different from just Googling something. Google shows you some products and then you click through and you buy it.</p>



<p>If it becomes that seamless where you don&#8217;t even have to realise you&#8217;re going to a website, which I think is possible, I also wonder, will people want to do that? Will they feel as trustworthy? Maybe, maybe not. But either way, that is probably going to be the case.</p>



<p>And so that&#8217;s going to require a lot of these, the discussion&#8217;s already happening. They have these payment protocols and things, and we&#8217;re starting to see the very beginning of it. So it&#8217;s kind of interesting to be inside of WooCommerce because the companies that do all this stuff, the Stripes and the PayPals and the Googles and stuff, these are partners that they work closely with. And you get to see a little behind the scenes of them trying to figure this out in real time, you know?</p>



<p>[00:35:28] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it kind of speaks to trust really, doesn&#8217;t it? So the repeat order thing through a ChatGPT style interface or whatever that looks like in the future, be it voice or speaking to a camera or whatever it may be, I could totally see myself ordering the, I don&#8217;t know, the groceries or the toothpaste or whatever it is that, I really don&#8217;t need to see that thing. I don&#8217;t need to go to a shopping checkout. I just need to know that my next pack of toothpaste is going to arrive reliably tomorrow morning. That&#8217;s all I need to know. I feel like there is, there&#8217;s a there there, if you know what I mean? Despite the fact that we&#8217;re so wedded to this interface of, go to the website, look at the pictures, click the cart number, click how many you want, go to the cart, proceed with the checkout, dah, dah, dah. Most of that is going to be obsolete for the utilitarian stuff, I think. I don&#8217;t know. We&#8217;ll see.</p>



<p>[00:36:15] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> I feel like Amazon&#8217;s been trying that for a while, but I still have to check it because I feel like we return 30% of the things we buy at Amazon. It comes, it&#8217;s the wrong size, it doesn&#8217;t look anything like the picture, all that sort of stuff. Hopefully those problems still get solved, before we get to the point where I&#8217;m not even going to look at what I ordered. I think we still have a lot of time there.</p>



<p>[00:36:33] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, so even if that interface isn&#8217;t quite as radical as I just suggested, but even if there&#8217;s like a back and forth between the AI and the website. I don&#8217;t know, I ask for a particular thing, and then the chat interface or whatever it may be shows me a picture from the website or something along those lines. This whole scraping of the website and surfacing the content of the website, and then I can make those decisions based upon what I see. Maybe it&#8217;ll be a bit more back and forward, and far less of the AI, and more of the AI meets human kind of interface.</p>



<p>[00:37:01] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, and I think a lot of it is, it&#8217;ll feel like magic to the end user with an AI, but really it&#8217;s just going to be a ton of code and protocols and extensions and things. Under the hood, that&#8217;s going to be a ton of manual work, getting all that stuff there. But I think with WooCommerce especially, most of the Woo stores I come across, they&#8217;re very weird, I guess is the best way to put it. They&#8217;re unique products, you know? They&#8217;re often not selling the toothpaste and that sort of stuff. Or if they are, they&#8217;re selling the very interesting toothpaste that you can only buy from this one company.</p>



<p>So I think that&#8217;s what&#8217;s fun about it, is I think it&#8217;ll really be for people looking for those weird, unique products, and the kind of stuff you&#8217;re not going to get on Amazon or you&#8217;re not going to get on a basic walmart.com or something. So yeah, I think it&#8217;ll be interesting to see where this goes.</p>



<p>[00:37:44] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Do you know if Automattic, or WordPress more generally, do you know if it&#8217;s investing anything in its own AI? Everything at the moment, all the oxygen seems to be being consumed by the, let&#8217;s say, four big players that we&#8217;ve all heard of. We don&#8217;t need to name the names, we all know who they are. But it&#8217;d be curious as to whether a company obviously deeply rooted in tech, like Automattic is inventing, creating those kind of things. That&#8217;d be a curious shift.</p>



<p>[00:38:07] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, I mean you can see it already. Telex is a product that&#8217;s come out from Automattic. It lets you build blocks. They have a AI site builder. If you go to wordpress.com, a good amount of people are actually, the first thing they do is use this AI site builder that gets you kind of from zero to like a pretty decent starting site. And then you can go in and the block editor and customise everything.</p>



<p>Is Automattic training their own models and stuff? I don&#8217;t think so, or at least I don&#8217;t know. But, I mean there&#8217;s a bunch of stuff happening, that&#8217;s the public facing stuff, which is building websites. There&#8217;s stuff around WooCommerce, there&#8217;s stuff around support. Our support is very heavily leaned into AI and it&#8217;s actually very good. There&#8217;s all sorts of these other places.</p>



<p>And then there&#8217;s a ton of stuff internally in the company that we have because, you know, when you work with a thousand people, there&#8217;s a lot of information there. And so we have internal stuff that&#8217;s kind of like search through all of our, you know, internal dialogue and find this conversation and summarise it for me. And so it&#8217;s all there. It&#8217;ll be interesting to see which ones end up becoming good products.</p>



<p>[00:39:05] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, it sounds like exciting times. It sounds like you&#8217;ve landed in the right part of Automattic for you at least anyway. Yeah, fascinating times. The year 2026 for e-commerce, and WooCommerce more specifically, looks very, very bright.</p>



<p>Can we just ask you, before we go, where would be the best place to find you if anybody wants to reach out and say hi?</p>



<p>[00:39:23] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah, definitely. So if you are interested in WooCommerce, you can go to developer.woo.com. That&#8217;s kind of our developer blog and it has, it&#8217;ll take you to like the docs, it&#8217;ll take you to the community Slack, it&#8217;ll take you to our email newsletter and all that sort of stuff. That&#8217;s developer.woo.com.</p>



<p>For me, it&#8217;s my name, briancoords.com, and I&#8217;m mostly active on Twitter and YouTube these days. I tried all the other social networks, but everyone in WordPress stays on Twitter, so that&#8217;s where I&#8217;ll be for the foreseeable future.</p>



<p>[00:39:47] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So Brian is, as you would imagine it&#8217;s spelled, but Coords has two O&#8217;s. So it&#8217;s C-O-O-R-D-S. I&#8217;ll put all of the links in the show notes so that anything that Brian mentioned can be found there, wptavern.com. Search for Brian&#8217;s name and you will be able to find that episode. So Brian Coords, thank you so much for chatting to me today.</p>



<p>[00:40:05] <strong>Brian Coords:</strong> Yeah. Thank you.</p>
</div></details>



<p>On the podcast today we have <a href="https://x.com/briancoords">Brian Coords</a>.</p>



<p>Brian has been active in the WordPress space for over a decade, starting out in agencies building and managing websites, and is now a developer advocate at WooCommerce, bridging the gap between Woo’s internal engineers and the wider developer community. His journey includes being a high school teacher, working for nonprofits, and writing for the WP Tavern, before landing his role at Automattic.</p>



<p>If you’re interested in where WooCommerce, and WordPress itself, are headed, this episode will help, as Brian shares insights on WordPress’s evolving focus, the importance of embracing AI, and how a slower pace of change can be a strength in any open source ecosystem.</p>



<p>He talks about the massive rebrand at WooCommerce, the challenges and opportunities in competing with SaaS giants, and the unique developer relations role that balances his technical experience with communication skills.</p>



<p>We get into how the team Brian works with supports developers and agencies with documentation, office hours, and feedback loops, and how WooCommerce’s global reach makes for a complex but thriving ecosystem. There’s discussion about recent marketing efforts, the realities of open source support, and the surprising diversity of WooCommerce users worldwide.</p>



<p>Towards the end, we look ahead to what’s coming for WooCommerce, which is greater integration with block-based editing in WordPress Core, major investments in AI to streamline store management, and the future landscape of online shopping.</p>



<p>If you want to hear how WooCommerce and WordPress are responding to a rapidly changing tech environment, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p><a href="https://www.briancoords.com"> briancoords.com </a></p>



<p><a href="https://woocommerce.com">WooCommerce</a></p>



<p><a href="https://wordpress.org/news/2025/12/sotw-2025/"> State of the Word 2025</a></p>



<p><a href="https://woocommerce.com/community-slack/"> WooCommerce Community Slack</a></p>



<p><a href="https://automattic.com/for-agencies/">Automattic for Agencies</a></p>



<p><a href="https://woocommerce.com/payments/">WooPayments</a></p>



<p><a href="https://telex.automattic.ai"> Telex</a></p>



<p><a href="https://developer.woocommerce.com">Woo Developer Blog</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 07 Jan 2026 15:09:35 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:31;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:20:"Matt: Find My Update";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151027";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:37:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/find-my-update/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:1244:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The best part about blogging is the comments, and after I <a href="https://ma.tt/2026/01/find-my-upgrade/">posted</a> &#8220;I wish that when you use Find My to find your iPhone, it would also flash the flashlight, which would be great for finding it in a bag or a dark room.&#8221; <a href="https://gravatar.com/mwenderwenmark">Michael Wender</a> and <a href="https://artiss.me/">David Artiss</a> jumped in that it&#8217;s already there!</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Apple support <a href="https://support.apple.com/guide/watch/ping-your-iphone-apddd5a326d2/watchos">says if you touch and hold it will flash the light</a>! Now I haven&#8217;t been able to get this to work yet, perhaps because when I did, I got a notice that Precision Finding, which uses ultra-wideband (UWB) frequencies to help you find your phone or Airtag, which is magical, isn&#8217;t available in all regions. I&#8217;m currently stranded in St. Martin because of airspace issues with Venezuela, and apparently, this is one of the countries, like Indonesia, where UWB doesn&#8217;t work.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Update: Hours later, the press-and-hold thing now flashes the light, so it must have been a heisenbug.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 07 Jan 2026 04:30:48 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:32;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:80:"Open Channels FM: How to Spot a Committed Business Partner (and Avoid Red Flags)";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113510";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:85:"https://openchannels.fm/how-to-spot-a-committed-business-partner-and-avoid-red-flags/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:199:"Successful partnerships hinge on genuine commitment, proactive engagement, and collaborative effort, requiring integration across teams and mutual benefits beyond mere visibility for lasting success.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 05 Jan 2026 10:44:23 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:33;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:21:"Matt: Find My Upgrade";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151013";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:38:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/find-my-upgrade/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:192:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><br />I wish that when you use Find My to find your iPhone, it would also flash the flashlight, which would be great for finding it in a bag or a dark room. </p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 05 Jan 2026 05:58:40 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:34;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:21:"Matt: Jackson Kiddard";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=151002";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:38:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/jackson-kiddard/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:809:"<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Anything that annoys you is teaching you patience.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Anyone who abandons you is teaching you how to stand up on your own two feet.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Anything that angers you is teaching you forgiveness and compassion.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Anything that has power over you is teaching you how to take your power back.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Anything you hate is teaching you unconditional love.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Anything you fear is teaching you the courage to overcome your fear.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Anything you can’t control is teaching you how to let go.</p>
</blockquote>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sun, 04 Jan 2026 07:26:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:35;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:15:"Matt: Two Links";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=150994";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/two-links/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:514:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">They&#8217;re both long reads, but worthwhile.</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://danwang.co/2025-letter/">Dan Wang&#8217;s 2025 Letter</a>: Is excellent writing and provides keen insight into the dynamics of American and Chinese tech.</li>



<li><a href="https://zhengdongwang.com/2025/12/30/2025-letter.html">Zhengdong Wang&#8217;s 2025 Letter</a>: If you follow all the links, you&#8217;ll have the most complete view of everything happening in AI. </li>
</ul>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 03 Jan 2026 03:30:01 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:36;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:20:"Matt: Happy New Year";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=150981";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:39:"https://ma.tt/2026/01/happy-new-year-3/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:2306:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I rang in the new year with an unexpected trip to St. Barts with friends.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I resolved in 2025 to watch more films. It&#8217;s an art form I have many friends in, and when we have hung out, I&#8217;ve realized how shallow my understanding of the film canon is. I have a lot of catch-up to do, and it also requires a lifestyle change, as I&#8217;m usually at a laptop. Making space to enjoy a film for a few hours was a departure from my regular routines.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I watched 72 movies last year! This definitely came at the cost of books finished, if I look at my stats. But I&#8217;ve begun to really appreciate the contours of what I love about a movie now.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">This is a long lead to recommend the movie <a href="https://www.netflix.com/gp-en/title/81551446">Jay Kelly</a>, which streams on Netflix with George Clooney and Adam Sandler. After seeing many great and terrible movies, old and new, I really appreciated what they did with this film, and it was one of the rare ones I watched entirely or in sections several times, gaining new appreciation for what they pulled off.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It starts with a <a href="https://www.gq.com/story/one-shot-scenes-in-film-and-tv-definitively-ranked">&#8220;One-er,&#8221;</a> which is a continuous shot with no cuts that moves between a number of different scenes in a really slick way. (Excellent episode of The Studio about this!)  It&#8217;s a film way of showing off, as it must be incredibly hard to have hundreds of people all pulling off something flawlessly for a long period of time, not unlike a Broadway show.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Jay Kelly is George Clooney playing himself, which, as he says, is the hardest thing to do. There are meta-levels of reality and fiction, and so many allusions and callbacks, the entire thing is a work of art. You learn to appreciate what actors do and how film is made while watching a film being made in such a nice way.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">So that is my recommendation for the year. In older movies, I really enjoyed Kate &amp; Leopold, which also features an amazing Sting song that is impossible to find on streaming services.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 02 Jan 2026 06:00:07 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:37;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:100:"Open Channels FM: Building Successful Collaboration Through Communication in WordPress Release Teams";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113371";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:107:"https://openchannels.fm/building-successful-collaboration-through-communication-in-wordpress-release-teams/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:378:"In the world of open source, communication stands out as a key factor for successful collaboration. WordPress release teams unite contributors from all around the globe, bringing together a remarkable diversity of experiences, cultures, and time zones. While technical prowess is important, it is the way team members connect and exchange information that truly shapes [&#8230;]";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 31 Dec 2025 14:36:21 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Abha Thakor";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:38;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:60:"Open Channels FM: Do the Woo / Open Channels FM 2025 Pathway";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113788";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:65:"https://openchannels.fm/do-the-woo-open-channels-fm-2025-pathway/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:95:"For Open Channels FM 2025 has been a windy pathway that has led to a sweet spot for us in 2026.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 30 Dec 2025 10:17:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:39;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:16:"Matt: Riley Walz";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=150936";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://ma.tt/2025/12/riley-watz/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:730:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The writer Aadil Pickle has a <a href="https://sfalexandria.com/posts/rileys-ideas/">great profile of one of my favorite hackers, &#8220;Training the Idea Muscle&#8221; on Riley Walz</a>. Riley epitomizes the term &#8220;high agency,&#8221; and I&#8217;ve been continually impressed with his ability to rapidly code novel ideas and interfaces on top of public or reverse-engineered data. He&#8217;s a hacker, artist, and provocateur.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;m enjoying this slower time of the year, and it looks like this will be the warmest Christmas I can remember in Houston; it was 80° F today! Makes me appreciate what Christmas in the southern hemisphere must be like.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 24 Dec 2025 00:32:15 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:40;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:139:"Gutenberg Times: Roadmap for WordPress 7.0 and schedule, commands for the Command Palette, Gutenberg 22.3, and more — Weekend Edition 353";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://gutenbergtimes.com/?p=43471";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:143:"https://gutenbergtimes.com/roadmap-for-wordpress-7-0-and-schedule-commands-for-the-command-palette-gutenberg-22-3-and-more-weekend-edition-353/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:26914:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Hi there, </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Welcome to our last edition for the year 2025. I am not ready to reflect on the whole year, however, I am excited for 2026. There will be many new features coming to WordPress with the three major releases and also plenty of bug fixes and quality-of-life enhancement towards consistency. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The first edition for 2026 will have to wait a bit and it is scheduled for January 24, 2026, roughly a month from now, due to my vacation and training schedule.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I wish you and yours wonderful Holidays and a happy, prosperous and healthy New Year! <img alt="🤶" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f936.png" style="height: 1em;" /><img alt="🎄" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f384.png" style="height: 1em;" /><img alt="🎁" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f381.png" style="height: 1em;" /><img alt="🎆" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f386.png" style="height: 1em;" /><img alt="🎇" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f387.png" style="height: 1em;" /></p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Yours, <img alt="💕" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f495.png" style="height: 1em;" /><br /><em>Birgit</em></p>





<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Steve Burge</strong> and <strong>Dan Knaus</strong>s interviewed me for the PublishPress podcast. We covered WordPress 6.9&#8217;s six new blocks (accordion, term query, time to read, math, comment count, and comment link) plus editorial notes for team collaboration. The release marks a restart after Automattic&#8217;s contribution pause.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">WordPress 7.0 ( April 9, 2025) will bring template management improvements and a tabs block. The AI team is building foundational infrastructure—Abilities API, MCP Adapter, PHP AI SDK, and experiments plugin—enabling plugins to integrate with AI assistants. Real-time collaborative editing remains in development, facing technical hosting challenges. <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9doWARTmWc">The recording is available on YouTube.</a></p>


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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="0-word-press-release-information">Roadmap WordPress 7.0 and two more releases in 2026</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In his lates post, <strong>Matias Ventura</strong>, lead architect of Gutenberg, laid out <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/11/planning-for-7-0/"><strong>the plan for WordPress 7.0.</strong></a>  It&#8217;s aspirational and not all the items will make it into the next major version of WordPress. The very detailed plan covers the project’s shift into Phase 3: Collaboration, a vision for real-time co-editing, and enhanced communication through site notes. Ventura underscores the modernization of the administrative experience via a unified design system and expanded DataViews. By integrating a standardized AI API and advancing responsive editing tools, WordPress 7.0 aims to unify the design and development process. Ultimately, the release promises to deliver a more cohesive and performant platform through refined navigation and versatile new core blocks. Here are the broad topics of the plan. </p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/11/planning-for-7-0/#collaboration">Collaboration </a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/11/planning-for-7-0/#admin">Admin</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/11/planning-for-7-0/#apis">APIs</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/11/planning-for-7-0/#navigation-block">Navigation Block</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/11/planning-for-7-0/#customization">Customization</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/11/planning-for-7-0/#blocks">Blocks</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/11/planning-for-7-0/#media">Media</a></li>
</ul>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Jonathan Desrosiers</strong> also published the <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/project/2025/12/18/proposal-2026-major-release-schedule/"><strong>proposed schedule of the 2026 </strong></a>releases. Following the schedule, we have two more dates to put on our calendars: Beta 1 for WordPress 7.0 will be on February 19, and RC 1 is scheduled for March 19, 2026. </p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img alt="Table of WordPress release dates for 2026" class="wp-image-43753" height="479" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Screenshot-2025-12-20-at-19.32.47.png?resize=652%2C479&#038;ssl=1" width="652" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Provided the Release squad approves this schedule. I also can offer a timeline for the <strong>WordPress 7.0 Source of Truth:</strong> First draft will be available for public preview on February 26, 2026, and the post will be published on March 26, 2026.</p>



<div class="wp-block-group has-light-background-background-color has-background"><div class="wp-block-group__inner-container is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><img alt="🎙" class="wp-smiley" src="https://s.w.org/images/core/emoji/17.0.2/72x72/1f399.png" style="height: 1em;" /> The latest episode is <a href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast/gutenberg-changelog-125-wordpress-6-9-gutenberg-22-1-and-gutenberg-22-2/">Gutenberg Changelog #125 – WordPress 6.9, Gutenberg 22.1 and Gutenberg 22.2</a> with <strong>JC Palmes</strong>, WebDev Studios</p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-full is-style-no-vertical-margin"><img alt="Gutenberg Changelog 125 with JC Palmes and host Birgit Pauli-Haack" class="wp-image-43283" height="186" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Screenshot-2025-11-28-at-18.19.29.png?resize=652%2C186&#038;ssl=1" width="652" /></figure>


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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="gutenberg-22-3-and-beyond">Gutenberg 22.3 and beyond</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Hector Prieto</strong> led the release of <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/">Gutenberg 22.3 (December 17)</a>. In his release post he highlighted:</p>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/#dedicated-fonts-page-for-easier-typography-management">Dedicated Fonts page for easier typography management</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/#image-editing-improvements">Image editing improvements</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/#responsive-grid-block">Responsive Grid block</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2025/12/17/gutenberg-22-3-december-17/#other-highlights">Other highlights</a></li>
</ol>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Dave Smith,</strong> core conditrbutor on the GGutenbergProject explains in his video <br /><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWR6_DHQoI4"><strong>The changes leveling up Navigation in WordPress 7.0</strong></a>,He wrote in tthedescription: &#8220;Navigation is one of the most important — and most frustrating — parts of building a WordPress site.In this video, I walk you through what’s changing, why it matters, and show the real work already underway — including early prototypes and demos.&#8221; Check it out. </p>


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<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="0-p">Plugins and Tools for #nocode site builders</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Jamie Marsland</strong> is at it again with short videos and teaching you new skills. In his latest video <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGKVSl7_1EU"><strong>&#8220;How to Create a High-Converting Landing Page With WordPress (Free Blueprint)&#8221;</strong></a> he gives you step -y -tep instructions for an easy way to create high-converting WordPress landing pages using only core blocks. He built a distraction-free landing page based on the <a href="https://storybrand.com/">StoryBrand</a> methodology, so each section has a clear purpose and guides visitors through a simple story as they scroll.</p>


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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong><a href="https://x.com/SarahPerezTC">Sarah Perez</a>,</strong> consumer tech editor at TechCrunch, reported that &#8220;<a href="https://techcrunch.com/2025/12/03/wordpresss-vibe-coding-experiment-telex-has-already-been-put-to-real-world-use/"><strong>WordPress’s vibe-coding experiment, Telex, is now being used</strong></a>&#8221; and it features Automattic’s AI tool for natural language web development. Introduced at the &#8220;State of the Word&#8221; event, <a href="https://telex.automattic.com">Telex</a> allows users to create complex Gutenberg blocks, like pricing calculators and logo carousels, without coding. Perez highlights how &#8220;vibe coding&#8221; makes site building accessible for non-tech users, enabling them to create professional results. With the new Abilities API, Telex marks WordPress’s move toward AI-driven workflows that streamline the design process.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong><a href="https://x.com/courtneyr_dev">Courtney Robertson</a></strong> Developer advocate at GoDaddy released the plugin <a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/post-formats-for-block-themes/"><strong>Post Formats for Block Themes</strong></a>, which brings back old-school post formats to modern WordPress block themes. It restores useful features for galleries, quotes, and videos often missing in newer themes. You’ll find smart auto-detection, unique block patterns for each format, and a handy Chat Log block for easy transcripts. By combining these classic tools with today’s full-site editing, this plugin helps creators maintain a great design and add variety in a simple and accessible way.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Valentin Grenier</strong>, a WordPress developer from Toulouse, France, just dropped his first plugin: <strong><a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/simple-block-animations/">Simple block animations</a></strong>. It’s a cool, lightweight tool for adding some fun scroll-triggered visual effects to your Gutenberg blocks without needing to mess with any custom code. You get five different animation types, like fades and slides,, thatyou can tweak with durations and delays. Built using the <a href="https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Intersection_Observer_API">Intersection Observer API</a> and good old native CSS, it keeps things running smoothly by loading assets only when they&#8217;re needed while also being mindful of motion preferences to make it accessible. </p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="2-word-press-6-0-1-and-6-1-scheduled">What&#8217;s new in WordPress Playground</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Felyph Centra posted a few video on WordPressTV to showcase various features of WordPress Playground </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong><a href="https://wordpress.tv/2025/12/09/previewing-github-branches-with-wordpress-playground/">Previewing GitHub branches with WordPress Playground</a>. </strong>This video demonstrates a method to streamline development reviews. This technique addresses the common pain point of needing complex local environments or relying on static screenshots to share work in progress.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong><a href="https://wordpress.tv/2025/12/09/introduction-to-wordpress-playground-landing-page/">Introduction to WordPress Playground landing page</a></strong>. The new landing page explains the capabilities of the platform and what is possible with WordPress Playground.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong><a href="https://wordpress.tv/2025/12/09/using-wordpress-playground-to-work-with-ai-agents/">Using WordPress Playground to work with AI agents</a></strong>. Centra shared how you can use the WordPress Playground to integrate with AI agents. with an example that uses GitHub Copilot agents. Using this flow it executes small tasks for a plugin, such as refactoring code or updating documentation. WordPress Playground can serve as a base to validate the AI agent’s code changes using E2E tests.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In the post <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/playground/2025/12/19/action-required-github-proxy-com-shutdown/"><strong>Action required: github-proxy.com shutdown</strong></a> Centra lays out the migration to switch over from a third-party proxy server to Playground&#8217;s built -n CORS handling. Your existing blueprints are safe, though. If you worked with Blueprints you can also learn how to reference GitHub repos, folders and files with native Playground resources. </p>


<div class="ng-block-bddcf316d85bb13e wp-block-newsletterglue-container ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div class="ng-block-vs ng-block-vs-1" colspan="3" height="0" style="height: 0px;"></div></div><div><div class="ng-block-hs ng-block-hs-1" height="0" style="width: 0px;"></div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; text-align: none; color: #666666; background-color: #fdfcea; border-radius: 12px;"><div class="ng-block-f91aec5f27af09fb wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p><strong> <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">&#8220;Keeping up with Gutenberg—Index- Index 2025&#8221;</a> </strong><br />A chronological list of the WordPress Make Blog posts from various teams involved in Gutenberg development: Design, Theme Review Team, Core Editor, Core JS, Core CSS, Test, and Meta team from Jan. 2024 on. Updated by yours truly. </p></div></div></div></div>

<div class="ng-block-29661ccc8c218110 wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p>The previous years are also available: <br /><strong><strong><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2020/">2020</a> | <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2021/">2021</a></strong> | <strong><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index-2022/">2022</a></strong></strong> | <strong><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2023">2023</a></strong> | <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/references/keeping-up-with-gutenberg-index/gutenberg-index-2024/"><strong>2024</strong></a></p></div></div></div></div></div><div class="ng-block-hs ng-block-hs-2" height="0" style="width: 0px;"></div></div><div><div class="ng-block-vs ng-block-vs-2" colspan="3" height="0" style="height: 0px;"></div></div></div></div>


<h2 class="wp-block-heading" id="3-building-themes-for-fse-and-word-press">Building Blocks and Tools for the Block editor</h2>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In this week&#8217;s livestream<strong> JuanMa Garrido </strong>explored how to <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETqUp0UXH0k" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">create commands for the Commands Palette</a>. WordPress 6.9 brought the Command Palette to the whole WordPress space and not just restrict it to the Site Editor. Now all plugin developer can register commands together with their plugin&#8217;s features. </p>


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<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Justin Tadlock</strong> published the monthly roundup on <a href="https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2025/12/whats-new-for-developers-december-2025/">What’s new for developers? (December 2025)</a>, noting WordPress 6.9 “Gene” and pointing to the 6.9 Field Guide and State of the Word. Highlights include the new AI Experiments plugin, Breadcrumbs block improvements heading toward stability, and an experimental Tabs block. Tooling updates cover WPCS 3.3.0, Data Views/Forms and Field API enhancements, <code>@wordpress/boot</code> routing, and a visibility key rename. Themes and Playground also saw notable updates.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph"><strong>Ryan Welcher</strong> shot a video <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApGnD888tZs" rel="noreferrer noopener" target="_blank">What’s New For WordPress Developers – December 2025</a>, covering the parts of the blog post. </p>



<figure class="wp-block-image size-full"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApGnD888tZs"><img alt="" class="wp-image-43627" height="360" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/12/Screenshot-2025-12-17-at-15.28.46.png?resize=650%2C360&#038;ssl=1" width="650" /></a></figure>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">As a reader of this newsletter you might already know about <a href="https://developer.wordpress.com/studio/">WordPress Studio</a>, the fast, free, open-source local development tool, that&#8217;s based on WordPress Playground. <strong>Nick Diego </strong>recorded a <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxBXWmo2oV0"><strong>Getting Started with WordPress Studio</strong></a> video and walks you through  creating local sites, configuring your environment, and using the tools that come bundled with the app. You’ll also learn how to unlock advanced features with a free WordPress.com account, including syncing with WordPress.com and Pressable, sharing live preview links, and using the built-in AI Assistant to accelerate development. Whether you build plugins, create themes, or manage client projects, Studio helps you work faster and smarter.</p>


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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In her post, <strong><a href="https://eventkoi.com/blog/event-query-loop-block-guide/">Build Custom Event Lists &amp; Grids With One Block: Event Query Loop Block Ultimate Guide</a></strong>, <strong>Lesley Sim</strong> shared a comprehensive tutorial for managing EventKoi’s specialized query block within WordPress. The post details how to create custom list and grid layouts using various query parameters, such as date ranges and recurring event instances, without any coding. By explaining the block&#8217;s internal structure and the flexible Event Data block, Sim illustrates how users can achieve precise design control and dynamic content display.</p>



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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">In his latest post for the WordPress Developer Blog, <strong><a href="https://developer.wordpress.org/news/2025/12/word-switcher-extending-core-blocks-with-interactivity/">Word Switcher: Extending Core Blocks with Interactivity</a></strong>, <strong>JuanMa Garrido</strong> provides a practical guide for beginners on enhancing standard WordPress blocks using native tools. Garrido demonstrates how to combine the <strong>Format API</strong> for editor controls, the <strong>HTML API</strong> for server-side processing, and the <strong>Interactivity API</strong> for frontend animations. Developers learn to create a &#8220;word switcher&#8221; effect that cycles through text variations without relying on heavy external libraries. This approach ensures a lightweight, performant, and professional workflow that bridges the gap between simple content entry and modern, reactive web design.</p>


<div class="ng-block-32beb9b955f7738b wp-block-newsletterglue-container ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div class="ng-block-vs ng-block-vs-1" colspan="3" height="0" style="height: 0px;"></div></div><div><div class="ng-block-hs ng-block-hs-1" height="0" style="width: 0px;"></div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px; text-align: none; color: #666666; background-color: #f8f8f8; border-radius: 8px;"><div class="ng-block-5fd7af66d6ec69fd wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p><strong><a href="https://gutenbergtimes.com/need-a-zip-from-master/">Need a plugin .zip from Gutenberg&#8217;s master branch?</a></strong><br />Gutenberg Times provides daily build for testing and review.</p></div></div></div></div>

<div class="ng-block-c2721ada33a25eaa wp-block-newsletterglue-image ng-block size-full is-resized" width="100%"><div><div><div align="center" class="ng-block-td" style="padding-top: 0px; padding-bottom: 0px; padding-left: 0px; padding-right: 0px;"><a href="https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json"><img alt="" class="wp-image-42874 ng-image" height="45" src="https://i0.wp.com/gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Screenshot-2025-11-15-at-12.06.44.png?resize=196%2C45&#038;ssl=1" style="border-style: none; border-color: transparent;" width="196" /></a></div></div></div></div>

<div class="ng-block-b17e37e2c3c95b51 wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 16px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 1.6; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p>Now also available via <a href="https://playground.wordpress.net/?blueprint-url=https://gutenbergtimes.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/playnightly.json">WordPress Playground</a>. There is no need for a test site locally or on a server. Have you been using it? <a href="mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com">Email me </a>with your experience.</p></div></div></div></div></div><div class="ng-block-hs ng-block-hs-2" height="0" style="width: 0px;"></div></div><div><div class="ng-block-vs ng-block-vs-2" colspan="3" height="0" style="height: 0px;"></div></div></div></div>


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<p class="has-text-align-center has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph"><em>Questions? Suggestions? Ideas? </em><br /><em>Don&#8217;t hesitate to send <a href="mailto:pauli@gutenbergtimes.com">them via email</a> or</em><br /><em> send me a message on WordPress Slack or Twitter @bph</em>.</p>



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<p class="has-text-align-center has-small-font-size wp-block-paragraph">For questions to be answered on the <a href="http://gutenbergtimes.com/podcast">Gutenberg Changelog</a>, <br />send them to <a href="mailto:changelog@gutenbergtimes.com">changelog@gutenbergtimes.com</a></p>


<div class="ng-block-a8ee09373a453c15 wp-block-newsletterglue-separator ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="center" class="ng-block-td" style="padding-top: 20px; padding-bottom: 20px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; color: #666666;"><hr style="background-color: transparent; color: transparent; margin: 0; border: 0; border-top: 1px solid #666666; width: 560px; height: 0;" /></div></div></div></div>

<div class="wp-block-newsletterglue-showhide ng-block" width="100%"><div class="ng-block-3a55f65ab95aa2e7 wp-block-newsletterglue-text ng-block" style="color: #666666;" width="100%"><div><div><div align="none" class="ng-block-td" style="font-size: 14px; font-family: Helvetica; line-height: 0.2; font-weight: normal; padding-top: 8px; padding-bottom: 10px; padding-left: 20px; padding-right: 20px; text-align: none; color: #666666;"><p><strong>Featured Image: </strong></p></div></div></div></div></div>




<hr class="wp-block-separator has-alpha-channel-opacity is-style-wide" />";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sat, 20 Dec 2025 18:35:49 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:18:"Birgit Pauli-Haack";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:41;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:25:"Matt: Wolfram Automattica";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=150898";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:42:"https://ma.tt/2025/12/wolfram-automattica/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:2241:"<figure class="wp-block-image size-large"><img alt="" class="wp-image-150900" height="337" src="https://i0.wp.com/ma.tt/files/2025/12/Gemini_Generated_Image_pzhu6zpzhu6zpzhu-1024x572.png?resize=604%2C337&#038;quality=80&#038;ssl=1" width="604" /></figure>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s exciting to announce that <a href="https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=stephen+wolfram">Stephen Wolfram</a> has joined as a special advisor to <a href="https://automattic.com/">Automattic</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I promise this is not just because he is such <a href="https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/">an incredible blogger</a>, using WordPress, natch.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you don&#8217;t know about Stephen Wolfram, <a href="https://www.stephenwolfram.com/about/">his about page is not a bad place to start</a>, but far more interesting is his <a href="https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-productive-life-some-details-of-my-personal-infrastructure/">2019 essay on Seeking the Productive Life</a>, which includes a setup for hiking outdoors while typing on a laptop.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Stephen was doing the remote CEO thing decades before I imagined Automattic. He spoke at Automattic&#8217;s Grand Meetup in 2019 and one of my favorite memories was seeing him at the silent disco after-party. We also did <a href="https://distributed.blog/2019/10/03/turning-ideas-into-real-things/">an episode of the Distributed podcast together</a>.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Since he started engaging more deeply earlier this year, I&#8217;ve gotten a lot of joy from seeing him interact with teams across the company, asking questions in an incisive, inquisitive way that helps break down problems. We just finished up several hours of a deep dive into our board topics with several hundred Automatticans participating.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Automattic has been blessed with amazing directors over the years. Currently, our board is <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Susan_Decker">Susan Decker</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_E._Dunwoody">General Ann Dunwoody</a>, <a href="https://toni.org/">Toni Schneider</a>, and me.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Fri, 19 Dec 2025 02:47:08 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:42;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:88:"Open Channels FM: Delivering Customer Value Through Collaborative Ecosystem Partnerships";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113501";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:95:"https://openchannels.fm/delivering-customer-value-through-collaborative-ecosystem-partnerships/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:199:"In this podcast, Jonathan chats with Sandra from Greyd and Tim from BigScoots about forming strong partnerships in WordPress. They share tips on success, collaboration, and maintaining relationships.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 18 Dec 2025 10:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:43;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"Matt: The Thinking Game";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=150883";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:40:"https://ma.tt/2025/12/the-thinking-game/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:650:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">If you haven&#8217;t seen it, The Thinking Game documentary is excellent, and available for free on YouTube.</p>



<figure class="wp-block-embed alignfull is-type-video is-provider-youtube wp-block-embed-youtube wp-embed-aspect-16-9 wp-has-aspect-ratio"><div class="wp-block-embed__wrapper">

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<p class="wp-block-paragraph">You have to buy it, but the Kanye documentary <a href="https://www.inwhosenamemovie.com/">In Whose Name</a> is also pretty fascinating. (I first blogged about Kanye in 2007, <a href="https://ma.tt/2007/07/on-php/">discussing PHP&#8217;s botched version 4 to 5 upgrade</a>.)</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 18 Dec 2025 05:29:42 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:44;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:112:"WPTavern: #198 – Muntasir Sakib on Bridging the Gap Between WordPress Plugin Development and Marketing Success";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=201777";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:126:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/198-muntasir-sakib-on-bridging-the-gap-between-wordpress-plugin-development-and-marketing-success";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:49111:"<details>Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:19] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, build it and they might come, bridging the gap between WordPress plugin development and marketing success.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you or your idea featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today, we have Muntasir Sakib. Muntasir, has been active in the WordPress space since 2018, working with well-known plugins and companies such as Tutor, LMS, Droip and more. He&#8217;s played a key role scaling products from their early days helping them achieve wider adoption.</p>



<p>He&#8217;s also been active in the WordPress community more broadly at events such as WordCamp Asia and Word Camp Sylhet.</p>



<p>The focus of today&#8217;s episode is a crucial, yet often overlooked topic, especially if you&#8217;re a plugin developer. It&#8217;s a chat about the moment when plugin development ends and the real success can begin. In a WordPress marketplace that&#8217;s more crowded and competitive than ever, simply build it and they will come, does not mean that users will. Muntasir wants to bust the myth by digging into why marketing is essential from day one, and not an afterthought left until launch day.</p>



<p>We start by learning about Muntasir&#8217;s journey through the WordPress ecosystem, and his approach to balancing development and marketing for plugins. He explains the key differences between marketing in the WordPress ecosystem versus the SaaS world. In WordPress, you don&#8217;t control the full stack and your users expect openness and interoperability, making community focus and support critical.</p>



<p>The discussion then turns to the practicalities of launching and growing a plugin. Why throwing new features at a product isn&#8217;t enough, and why listening to users and building community relationships is often more valuable than racing to add features no one has asked for.</p>



<p>We talk about the dos and don&#8217;ts gained from Muntasir&#8217;s experience, including the pitfalls of relying on lifetime deals for early revenue, and why a recurring revenue model is key for long-term sustainability.</p>



<p>We also talk through the role of community, partnerships, and events like WordCamps, not just as marketing opportunities, but as places to build the relationships and collaborations that can help plugins thrive.</p>



<p>if you&#8217;re a WordPress plugin developer wondering how to turn a finished product into real success, or you&#8217;re trying to figure out where marketing fits into your roadmap, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Muntasir Sakib.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast by Muntasir Sakib. Hello.</p>



<p>[00:03:47] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Hello, Nathan. How are you doing?</p>



<p>[00:03:48] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, good. Very nice to connect with you. We&#8217;ve had a long chat prior to hitting the record button. And we really touched on all sorts of things in life. But that&#8217;s not the purpose of the podcast today. We&#8217;re going to keep it firmly on the WordPress side of things, and particularly about marketing, I guess maybe a good way to sum it up, which is a topic that we don&#8217;t often get into.</p>



<p>Before we get into that, Muntasir, I wonder if you wouldn&#8217;t mind just introducing yourself. Just tell us a little bit about yourself and what you do. How come you&#8217;re connected to the WordPress community? Whatever you think fits the bill.</p>



<p>[00:04:18] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Thank you, Nathan, for giving me the opportunity to talk about myself a bit, and it&#8217;s nice being with you here.</p>



<p>Well, I&#8217;m Muntasir, I&#8217;m Muntasir Sakib and I have been with WordPress since 2018. So you can say over half a decade. And throughout my career, I worked for some really, really amazing plugins and companies such as Tutor LMS, Droip, EasyCommerce, Core Designer, ThumbPress.</p>



<p>So when I joined JoomShaper, like premium, back in the days, I was talking about 2019, we had Tutor LMS and Tutor LMS had probably 15,000 or less active installations back in the time. And then within three and a half years, with the help of the amazing team we had back then, we all worked together day and night, and with our beautiful clients and customers all around the globe we achieved 100,000 plus active installations within three and a half years. And that was a phenomenal number to mention in the WordPress industry, in the WordPress ecosystem.</p>



<p>And then there&#8217;s Droip, the first ever true no-code website builder for WordPress, and that was born. It got a traction that we ever expected it to be that much. So we were overwhelmed about it as well.</p>



<p>And then during my tenure so far, I, along with my team, represented Tutor LMS and Droip at WordCamp Asia 2023, WordCamp Sylhet 2023 and some other WordPress meetups as well.</p>



<p>And why did we join WordCamps? That could be a question. It&#8217;s because we sponsored those events to show our gratitude to the WordPress community and the ecosystem. Because there&#8217;s a thing in WordPress, which we say Five for the Future, as per Matt. So every product companies and every business that do business in the WordPress industry should contribute in the WordPress ecosystem, contributes in the open source market so that it get better every day.</p>



<p>Because we are working in the ecosystem, we bring some real value for our clients. So what if our foundation is not strong enough to get those clients, to get those correct tractions? Because in the SaaS market nowadays, there are lots of, plethora of SaaS products, but we have to bring something together, stronger and better than SaaS, so that people believe in us and they come together to work with us and use our products.</p>



<p>[00:06:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, thank you. So you&#8217;ve been working with a variety of different clients in the WordPress space. And when I put out a message saying, I&#8217;d like to chat with a variety of people on this podcast, you reached out and you mentioned that you wanted to talk about essentially the gap where development finishes and success begins. Because I think it&#8217;s fair to say that if you were to rewind the clock, I don&#8217;t know, maybe 15 years or something like that, maybe 10 years, it was much more straightforward to build a product as a developer, put it out into the marketplace, and because you were potentially the prime mover, the first person to have such a thing, you might succeed just off the basis of build it and they will come. That old chestnut.</p>



<p>Whereas now the marketplace is much more mature, much more saturated. And so the idea of build it and they will come. Oh, really, I mean unless you are incredibly fortunate, or maybe you&#8217;ve already had some success and so have, I don&#8217;t know, your company has notoriety or what have you, that really isn&#8217;t the case anymore. When development finishes there needs to be this whole marketing piece that swings into action to alert the community.</p>



<p>So how would you differentiate between the plugin marketplace, in terms of marketing, and the SaaS marketplace? What makes those two things different?</p>



<p>[00:07:59] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Well, that&#8217;s a pretty important question that we mostly overlook. Nathan, thank you for bringing that out. We need to be very specific. When it&#8217;s about WordPress product marketing, it&#8217;s more like ecosystem driven than SaaS. When we&#8217;re talking about SaaS, you control the entire environment, your onboarding journey, your analytics, your pricing model, your customer journey. Everything is under the one umbrella.</p>



<p>But when it&#8217;s about WordPress, then you are selling inside an open ecosystem where users make dozens of plugins together. So you cannot give your customer some boundaries that if you use my product or my plugin, you cannot use others. It doesn&#8217;t make any sense.</p>



<p>So they&#8217;re going to use as many plugins as they want to, and you have to be compatible with every one of those. So you don&#8217;t control hosting, themes, PHP versions or the user&#8217;s technical setup, all of which impact your product experience, right?</p>



<p>And in wp.org, wp.org acts as a distribution channel. So you need to think about it. It&#8217;s more of like app store, which influence reviews, support expectations, and growth. In most cases, all the products start from wp.org, which provides a free version of every plugin.</p>



<p>So the founders and the marketers mostly overlook the thing that free plugin often becomes your biggest acquisition engine. So your marketing depends heavily on the documentation, the on point documentation, and the onboarding journey inside your WordPress dashboard. Your operation, the smoother it is, the better it&#8217;ll be to get the traction of the pro customers and the continuous updates, and your community presence. If you have no community presence in the ecosystem in your WordPress community, then you are just gone.</p>



<p>[00:09:50] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s so curious, when you sort of say it like that, the idea of logging into the WordPress backend, if you&#8217;re a plugin developer or a regular user of WordPress, you&#8217;ll be really familiar with this. If you go into a website, there&#8217;s often dozens of different things. And maybe a lot of them are kind of overlapping, so there might be things which integrate with other things. And as a plugin developer, that kind of overhead is something that you just don&#8217;t really need to worry about with SaaS, because you just build the thing, and you make sure that it works and everybody logs in, and it works because it&#8217;s yours and you control the infrastructure and the hardware that it&#8217;s on and the servers and all of that kind of stuff.</p>



<p>Whereas the WordPress thing, it&#8217;s just so much more complicated and you&#8217;ve really got to be thinking all the time about sticking to coding standards to make sure that at least you know your thing is doing it right. And if there&#8217;s a conflict and something breaks, well, you can be fairly sure that it wasn&#8217;t your fault, it might be somebody else&#8217;s fault. So it is much, much more complicated.</p>



<p>And then throw into it all of the other bits and pieces that you&#8217;ve just mentioned, community and all of that kind of stuff. I mean, it really is a very complicated picture, and I think getting more and more complicated year by year.</p>



<p>So have you, in your previous work, have you kind of identified this moment where the development cycle ends and the marketing cycle begins, if you like, but the plugin developer has basically made no preparation for the marketing piece? They&#8217;ve just built things and then have an expectation that, oh, it&#8217;ll just sell itself. Do you see that? Is that a real thing?</p>



<p>[00:11:22] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s definitely a real thing. And the thing is, I don&#8217;t give the blame to the developers actually, because they were supposed to build the product, they were supposed to follow the compliance issues, and they&#8217;re supposed to build fresh code so that the thing cannot break when people are using it massively.</p>



<p>But it&#8217;s mostly from our and from the marketers end that we need to tell them beforehand, like what to do and how can we get the KPIs? What are the things that we need to sell to our customers that going to help them to solve their problems?</p>



<p>Because the fun fact is, in most cases, when our founders or a developers is planning to build a product, a plugin, they were thinking from their end like, okay, fine, I want to build a product so that the product going to be that much good that everyone going to use it. But it&#8217;s not the case, because we have almost like 59,000 plugins right now in WordPress directory. So in every category, in every niche, there&#8217;s a plethora of products, plethora of competitors. So there were some big competitors and there are some upcoming competitors who are small.</p>



<p>So how they compete with someone who has already hundred thousand or a million of active installations, millions of happy users. We cannot compete them with just everything they have. Whether if we come with some specific niche, like some specific problems that they&#8217;re facing from our competitors, and we can add value to them, to our clients, they would be happy enough to try our product.</p>



<p>So you need to give something to the customers first so that they can rely on you. And if you have a good reputation beforehand, like if you are not new in this industry, you have some other plugins beforehand, and if have a good reputation and you are coming with another solution, they&#8217;re surely going to try it. And there&#8217;s the catch.</p>



<p>When people start using your product, they give you the feedback, and those feedbacks are gold mines. So you need to talk with your customers. You need to talk with the developers. You need to connect with them on regular basis. And that&#8217;s the job of us. That&#8217;s the real job of us, like the support system, the marketers, content creators. The documentations all need to come along and they need to figure out the problems, what they&#8217;re facing, and what the customers are asking for. What are the bugs they&#8217;re having? It can be a bug based on their environment, like everyone has their different environment, right?</p>



<p>But the thing is, when we speak to the customers, when we talk to them and when we try to figure out their issues and try to solve their problems, they&#8217;re going to do the best marketing you can ever imagine, the word of mouth. And WordPress is doing the exact same thing. WordPress is depending on word of mouth. Your 10 happy customers is way more important and valuable to you than a hundred thousand dollars.</p>



<p>[00:14:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And I think that kind of speaks to what I would imagine, or at least what I would hope to be the case. When I look back at my time in WordPress and I go right back to the beginning of it, it felt like a really good, solid playground for hobbyists. There were an awful lot of people who were doing things for a hobby, and then now it&#8217;s become much more professional. In fact, when I joined the WordPress community, that whole thing was just beginning to open up. There were a few companies who were making a great deal of success for themselves, selling things into the marketplace, you know, they had a free version and a pro version. But it was still, it still felt like the beginning of that, the wild west of that.</p>



<p>And I think that still there&#8217;s a little bit of that hobbyist mentality still out there where, you know, you attend events, you hang out with like-minded people. You can see that this individual over here, they had success, I could do the same. But there&#8217;s that whole thing that you&#8217;ve got to have prior to building anything, and it sounds to me like you&#8217;re making a real difference between the marketing people and the development people.</p>



<p>And, okay, maybe you are this unique person that can do both. Maybe you are brilliant at developing and you are going to be an amazing marketer. I think it&#8217;s fair to say that most people are not that. They don&#8217;t have the time, they&#8217;ve got other things to do, their skillset is developing, their skillset is marketing, they&#8217;re kind of different entities.</p>



<p>But it feels like for many people, that realisation hasn&#8217;t been made yet, that you need to, before launching, so maybe even at the moment you think, I am going to build this thing, maybe that&#8217;s the moment where you think, okay, two thirds of my budget is going to go into development and one third into marketing, or 50 50 or 70 30, or whatever it may be. I think that&#8217;s what you&#8217;re saying is that you need to be thinking about this right from the beginning, not leaving it until the last minute if you want it to be a success.</p>



<p>[00:15:57] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Exactly, exactly. You have to have a plan from day one when you started developing a product. How and where should I go? Who are my primary audiences? Whom to reach out. Which influencers should we work with? And when should I give them the beta version to test? I can give a beta version to like hundreds of peoples, who are willingly giving it a try. Tell us some beautiful insights, some valuable insights so that we can develop the product even more before going to the market. So that&#8217;s the thing.</p>



<p>In most cases, what developers are thinking, what mostly the founders who are mostly developers, they&#8217;re thinking like, well, I can develop the product like 80% and then for the rest 20%, we can start working with the marketing team. I can think of how to go to the market and how to have some early traction. Early traction is easy, but it&#8217;s not the kicker. Early traction is easy because if you have a freemium plan, you can definitely go for wp.org. There&#8217;s a free version so everyone can use it.</p>



<p>There&#8217;s a term, founder led marketing. So when you are a founder, yeah, you can just announce on your socials, like, yeah, I have a plugin. I developed it and I launched it on wp.org so you can try it. Everyone going to try it. No problem on that. But the thing is, there might be a hundred plus active installations on day one, but on day three it could go way below 10, 10 to 15.</p>



<p>So where are the rest of the people went? They just came here to try the product, you didn&#8217;t ask for anything. You didn&#8217;t know how to contact with them. You didn&#8217;t know how to collect the data, how to collect the information that you don&#8217;t have in your mind, in your head. What&#8217;s the fuss about? What&#8217;s the problem they&#8217;re having? So they didn&#8217;t even bother to share?</p>



<p>You need to ask first. Be the first person to ask the questions like, what are the problems you are having using my product? I eagerly want to know. I want to solve your problem. So when I am talking with each and every person, each and every client, as he&#8217;s valuable, we bring value to their life, they&#8217;re going to bring something for me too.</p>



<p>[00:18:01] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I think the curious thing about a lot of the developers that I know who&#8217;ve brought a plugin to the market is that they&#8217;ve been focused a lot on the features. They&#8217;ve got this laundry list of features and they get really wrapped up in the features and they execute that, they build the features. And then maybe somewhere along the line they realise, oh, there&#8217;s this other feature that would be quite nice to have. Yeah, let&#8217;s do that. And then before you know it, the idea of launching the product just gets pushed back and back and back because, oh, there&#8217;s another feature and, oh, I&#8217;ve thought of another feature. And on it goes.</p>



<p>And the whole time you haven&#8217;t been doing exactly what you said, kind of trying to figure out how to build up an audience, trying to figure out how to get influencers involved, how to put it out on, in this case, wordpress.org or whatever it may be. And that whole puzzle, that whole jigsaw piece, inside that puzzle needs to be thought out, I think for many people, at a much earlier date.</p>



<p>I get quite a lot of email from people who would like to have some product or service distributed through something like a podcast. On some level, it&#8217;s amazing that the people would like me to help them, but also when you go to the property that they&#8217;ve got, you can see that the thing that they&#8217;ve built is amazing, but also the marketing side of things hasn&#8217;t really been taken care of. So the website is nowhere near the standard that the plugin is. Everything about it, you know, the documentation is nowhere near the standard that the plugin is and so on. So there&#8217;s this sort of real disconnect.</p>



<p>So do you have any like do&#8217;s and don&#8217;ts? Have you got any, like a list of things that you highly recommend people do if they want to market a plugin? But also some things which you think, actually no, stay away from that, that&#8217;s snake oil, people have tried that and it doesn&#8217;t seem to work. Any order of any of those things.</p>



<p>[00:19:35] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Absolutely. If you&#8217;re talking about like developing features and releasing it every alternate week, these are the most common picture when we are thinking about WordPress ecosystem, or any other products. 80% people are doing that. But the problem occurs when, feature first development means you keep building what you want, not what your customers actually struggle with, right?</p>



<p>So when you release a product, you have the roadmap. You make it public. You show the customers like, well, these features are coming next, but people don&#8217;t bother about what features are coming next, they&#8217;re mostly bothered about what you have right now, and are those working properly or not? You might have, like when you were thinking of any e-commerce, you might have 20 or 30 payment gateway integrations with it. But I don&#8217;t need all the payment gateway integrations, right? I need specifically like one or two, like maybe I need PayPal integrations or Stripe integrations or Wise or some other integrations like Klarna.</p>



<p>The rest of the integrations you have are useless to me, so I don&#8217;t even bother whether they&#8217;re coming or not. I do bother about my product and I do bother about whether, as I am using your product, so even giving me the value of my requirements, like the PayPal is working fine, in the next update the PayPal is working still fine and it&#8217;s secured. When I click the update button, or if I enabled auto update, with an update the PayPal is not working. My business will go through the loss.</p>



<p>So it&#8217;s your responsibility to take care of my business because I&#8217;m using your product. So you have to make sure that every specific niche I am giving the solution for, are working properly after every updates and everything.</p>



<p>I often see companies who are trying to develop the update version, who are trying to give updates regular basis. They often consider giving it the quality assurance, the QA. The QA team mostly were doing nothing. They were just going through on the surface level. They bring the update, and then the people updated it, and the site crashed. And then they figured out, well, it might be your environment issues. It might be from your end because we are doing nothing. It&#8217;s working fine from our end. So let me see. Give me your backend credentials so that I can see what&#8217;s going on here. It&#8217;s a big no. It&#8217;s a big no for me. If you are talking about me, like it&#8217;s a big no. Why would I give my credentials to you? It&#8217;s your responsibility to take care of your product so that it&#8217;s working fine from my end.</p>



<p>These are the common things, and apart from that, when we are talking about feature first development, this leads to slower performance. The more the features, the slower the performance is, and it&#8217;s non-negotiable. The higher support workload and our roadmap, as I said, a roadmap that is reactive, not strategic. So strategic roadmap is important. Reactive roadmap means you are actually way far behind from your competitors. So many founders think that features is equal to value, but features are not equal to value. In reality, clarity, reliability, and use case fit, drive adoption and revenue.</p>



<p>[00:22:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So the really interesting thing about this is that there&#8217;s really two completely different worlds in collision here. So if you are the developer, you are basically sat in a chair looking at a screen, wrangling code. And it&#8217;s this, you&#8217;ve got this small window on the universe. You&#8217;re just sort of staring into this thing. You&#8217;ve got complete control over it. And it&#8217;s clean and it&#8217;s, I don&#8217;t really know how to describe it. It&#8217;s all just right in front of you.</p>



<p>Whereas the other side, the marketing side is the exact opposite. It&#8217;s like, turn away from the computer and look at the entire planet. Every single human being in it, all of the messiness of that, trying to find them, trying to figure out how you&#8217;re going to talk with them, trying to figure out how you&#8217;re going to let them know that you exist. Trying to figure out how you&#8217;re going to let them know that your product is exactly what they need. Trying to figure out how to do the SEO piece, and we could go on and on.</p>



<p>There really are two very different universes colliding there. And I feel that in many cases, a really different personality type fits those things. Like, you know, the developer sitting in the chair concentrating on that code is a really different kind of personality type, if you know what I mean, than the person who can turn around, look at the world, cope with that messiness and figure all of that out. I&#8217;m not saying that they&#8217;re not possible by two people, I&#8217;m just saying they are very, very different things. One, much messier and harder to figure out than the other.</p>



<p>But from what you are saying as a developer, you have to do both. You have to turn around and look at the world in all of its messiness because your users are going to kind of, you know, they&#8217;re the people that are going to tell you whether or not what you&#8217;re building is a good thing or what they need.</p>



<p>[00:24:26] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> No, no, I think we got it wrong because I didn&#8217;t say that developers need to do both of the work, they need to code fresh and they need to look around all the users, what they&#8217;re saying and how their product is performing. It&#8217;s not their job.</p>



<p>We need to be very specific. If I&#8217;m a developer, my only responsibility should be to do fresh code and to make sure that my product is working fine on every environment. And it&#8217;s the marketer&#8217;s duty to talk to the customers, to talk to the world, and if as a founder, I don&#8217;t need to jeopardise my business, my company, then I need to align with everything, with every team possible. Like there&#8217;s sales team, there&#8217;s marketing team, there&#8217;s support team, content team, developer team.</p>



<p>The thing is, market research should be done by the marketers. Market research should be done, the customers should be talked with the marketers, with the salespeople. They need to come along with the ideas that, well, fine, these are the opportunities we have right now. So if we want to build a product, if we want to develop a product, we need to bring these three or four features before releasing the product in the market because these are the things people are having problem with. So I am giving you this list of features, or this list of things that you need to have in your product, and then it can go to the design team. The design team come up with a very beautiful design and then the developers start developing it.</p>



<p>And then we need to figure out the fact that, well, the product is almost 80% done, so we need to reach to the influencers, we need to reach to some YouTube influencers who have great audience so that they can use it. So we can give them the beta version. They can use it, they can bring some beautiful solutions, some beautiful suggestions to make the product even more mature before going to the market. And we can share the thought with the developers so that they can update accordingly.</p>



<p>[00:26:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Right, I got it. Yeah, so I get the piece there. So really when I was talking about, you know, the developer facing one way and then facing the other way, the computer and the world, you are introducing then, in the middle, the developer turns around and instead of talking to the world, talks to the marketer.</p>



<p>And then the marketer absorbs those messages, whatever it is that the developer thinks, okay, it&#8217;s ready, it&#8217;s nearly ready, here&#8217;s the features. They communicate with the marketing people, the marketing people turn that into real world action. And then they themselves turn around and look at that bigger world and figure out how to do that.</p>



<p>I think the curious thing is, in our community, there&#8217;s so many of the solo developers who, when that thing that you&#8217;ve just suggested, gets suggested. That some of the budget goes to a marketer, it&#8217;s like, no, no, no, no, no, no, I can do it all. I&#8217;ll be fine, because we know it can work in some rare cases. But it&#8217;s not going to be as effective as getting somebody else on board.</p>



<p>But I think in our community, there is a, I don&#8217;t really know how to encapsulate this, but there&#8217;s a little bit of a divide between the marketing side of things, the sort of sponsorship side of things, the affiliate side of things, all of those bits, and the developers. And it&#8217;s not always an easy conversation to have.</p>



<p>I suppose, in the end it comes down to things like money and things like that, which our community is maybe not as comfortable talking about as other different communities.</p>



<p>So is there anything that you think is a bad idea? I remember in the show notes that you sent to me, there were a few things where you thought, for example, you mentioned things like the one-time revenue trap of lifetime deals and things like that. Do you want to mention some of the gotchas, some of the things in the past that you&#8217;ve thought, nope, don&#8217;t do that, that&#8217;s a bad idea?</p>



<p>[00:28:00] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Yeah. You were talking about the solo developer. There are a lot of solo developers, I might say. I must say because they are a one person team, and every project they build, every line of code they write, it&#8217;s like their children. So it&#8217;s always normal to be biased to your product. Like, yes, my product is the best because I have developed it with all my passion, with all my hard work. Why aren&#8217;t people using it?</p>



<p>And you might have a tight budget because when you are solo developer, the budget&#8217;s going to be tight. So you might not have that much money to spend on marketing before going to the market. And that&#8217;s fine. Welcome the community because the WordPress community is so helpful that even if you go to the community people and you tell them like, well, I am working on a product all by myself, and I want someone to come up with me and test the product and give me some valuable insights about what I can do better, before going to the market. And they&#8217;re always helpful. There are like hundreds and thousands of people who can help you, making your product even better by testing your beta versions, by testing your RC versions.</p>



<p>The thing is you have to be vocal. You have to talk to the poeple. You have to ask for help because you are helpless, you are working day and night on your product, and you cannot let people know, you cannot talk to people. You are very shy to ask for help, to ask for a hand. So how do I know that you are building a very beautiful product? I am here to help you, you just need to ask me. You want to give it a try? Sure thing. I will definitely give it a try and have some suggestions for you if you may allow me. That&#8217;s it.</p>



<p>And about the question is one time revenue, you think? Yeah. And whether it&#8217;s a trap or not. It&#8217;s a trap. It&#8217;s a trap. Nathan, I can say to you, like many WordPress founders rely on lifetime deals, one time license and large seasonal discounts. I mean Black Friday, Cyber Monday, the year end sales. Might going to create some cash upfront, but that doesn&#8217;t bring sustainability.</p>



<p>Sustainability is something way more different than cashflow. Because sustainability comes with recurring revenue. Your support is recurring, but if you have only lifetime deals, then your revenue is not. So how can you go along with your support team year after year, when you are running just once from a customer?</p>



<p>Because once a customer has got something lifetime from your end, you have to give him support. You have to provide him top-notch support for the rest of your lives, for the rest of products life. And then every year, fixed cost goes up. Teams, servers, your support team will go along. Your team will be bigger than the last year, along with your product. So your fixed cost will always go up. And lifetime buyers often create the highest support load while paying the least.</p>



<p>So you have to have that in your mind that when I am working for a easy traction and I am giving them the lifetime deals, and I want to onboard thousands of customers, lifetime customers, you need to think that you need to give them support, you need to develop the product for these thousand customers who will not ever going to pay a single penny to you anymore. So this is a big burden for you.</p>



<p>So real WordPress companies that scale, focus on renewals, annual plans, and clear upgrade perks. So here are the things, you might have like three to four pricing plans for one site, for ten sites and for unlimited sites. And I bought the one site license. And then I fell in love with your product, and I want to upgrade to ten site plans. So there should be a very, like one click upgradation plan, upgradation system where I can just go from one site to ten sites. And if you can&#8217;t give me that opportunity, and if you going to tell me like, okay, fine, buy the ten site license, give me the one site license key, and I&#8217;m going to dispatch that. I&#8217;m going to deactivate that and activate your license manually, that doesn&#8217;t make sense because that&#8217;s a hassle to me. I&#8217;m your customer, so you need to give me the smoother way. This is the thing.</p>



<p>[00:32:09] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> When you&#8217;ve been working for some of the, I don&#8217;t know, agencies or companies where there&#8217;s obviously a marketing team which has been a part of the success. Do you know roughly, I mean, maybe it&#8217;s just a ballpark figure, do you know roughly how much of the wider team so, you know, think of Company X, which is a development company, but they&#8217;ve got in-house marketing as well. Do you know how much of the company, in terms of personnel or revenue, is given over to marketing as opposed to everything else? So, you know, is it typically like in the sort of 20%, 30%, 50%? What&#8217;s your rough estimate for those?</p>



<p>[00:32:43] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> My rough estimate is your marketing budget should always be at least 30% of your total estimation cost. Because marketers need to talk to people, they need to reach out to the people, and they need to collaborate with most of the influencers who going to work for you, and you have to give them the honorarium to do the work for you.</p>



<p>So if the budget is not standard enough, then they have the boundaries to not do their works. So you need to give them the free hand, explore the sides to work with the other WordPress companies, to collaborate with better partners, to collaborate with other companies and to onboard their clients as well, so that your client base will increase day by day.</p>



<p>[00:33:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And in the old way, when I was talking about sort of 15 years ago, it felt like most things were driven by interaction with the WordPress community. Do you think that&#8217;s still like a viable way of doing things or, you know, in the case of, I don&#8217;t know, let&#8217;s say that you&#8217;ve got an LMS plugin or something like that. Your market really isn&#8217;t other WordPressers, your market is the entire world, you know, educators and what have you.</p>



<p>So do you put much stock in sort of turning up to events, and sponsoring WordPress stuff, or do you sort of advise, focusing on your customers? I&#8217;m just trying to figure out where the community bit might fit into all that.</p>



<p>[00:33:59] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Well, the thing is, let&#8217;s talk about the sponsorship first because in WordCamps you need to be sponsored under your product. If we are talking about any LMS plugin that we have. We want to let the WordPress community know that, yeah, we exist and we sponsor to this event. And the most important thing is only in the WordCamps or the WordPress meetups you&#8217;re going to get along with other companies in person, so that you can connect with them, you can talk to them. You can figure out an opportunity to work with other companies. If I am an LMS company, I have an LMS plugin, my customer&#8217;s going to need some hosting plan. They might need some security plugins. They might need some SEO plugins.</p>



<p>[00:34:39] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> It&#8217;s more of a sort of partnership opportunity.</p>



<p>[00:34:42] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Exactly.</p>



<p>[00:34:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Figuring out who, in some curious case that you may not yet have imagined, how you could collaborate in the future. So like you said, you know, hosting or whatever it may be, or maybe there&#8217;s a form plugin out there, which you kind of get the intuition that, oh, we could use bits of your form to onboard people to our platform, or whatever it may be. So it&#8217;s very much not about marketing to the end user. It&#8217;s more about figuring out partnerships and things like that. But also being a good custodian of an open source project, I guess, as well.</p>



<p>[00:35:11] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Of course, yeah. That&#8217;s true. Because in every other companies who are doing great in WordPress ecosystem, they have a very strong relationship with the other companies. They have the mutual connections with all the people, with all the companies their customers might going to need. And the partnerships, affiliates are the best way to do the marketing to grow, to scale your product in WordPress market. Because as I said at first, word of mouth is something that brings the most valuable customers in your back.</p>



<p>[00:35:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, I mean, you only have to look on Facebook and LinkedIn and things like that to realise that there&#8217;s a lot of people in the WordPress community who attend these events and hang out with other people at these events and make great friendships and partnerships and those kind of things. I presume they&#8217;re doing it because, A, it&#8217;s fun, but also there&#8217;s a real value to it, you know? I know all these people and so I know where to go when I&#8217;ve got a particular problem, or I just have an intuition that I want to spin my company off in a slightly different direction. I&#8217;ve now got some people that I know, some contacts that I&#8217;ve already made who might be able to help me with that.</p>



<p>Okay. What about the, sort of last one, and it&#8217;s actually alluding to your, one of the questions that you wrote here. Is there anything about the sort of psychology of this, the sort of mindset? Because I think with the best will in the world, a lot of people in our space, they kind of see marketing as a bit of a, an icky thing. Something that they really don&#8217;t feel comfortable doing.</p>



<p>Is there any kind of psychology here that you could recommend or some kind of mind shift that somebody like me, for example, who is terrible at marketing, that I might be able to undergo, some magic wand that you can wave to help me out?</p>



<p>[00:36:41] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> We all are learners. We learn every day. I&#8217;m still a learner, and most of the world famous marketers are learners, even the passionate developers. You still learn how to develop well, how to write fresh code in even a better way.</p>



<p>But the most important thing is there are some mindset differences. There are someone who is a builder, and there are someone who is a business owner. So the thin line between builders and business owners are builders think about features. They think about features, what to come along with next, what to give to our customers, whether they like it or not. But founders think, I build outcomes and value. I bring value to the customers.</p>



<p>Another mindset, if we talk about like the short term revenue and the long-term sustainability. So when we are selling lifetime deals, one time license, that&#8217;s the short term revenue that give me an early traction, a good traction within a few months. But it&#8217;ll never going to be sustainable. If you want to be sustainable, you need to have a recurring plan, you need to have recurring customers, you need to onboard more customers, but your recurring customers should be like around 70 to 80% or even more than that, so that you can sustain all along.</p>



<p>Then if I&#8217;m talking about another mindset that it can be the focus on the product versus focus on the user. Failing founders, like those who cannot scale, they think that what feature should we add next? But the scaling founders, if you talk to them, they&#8217;re going to think where my users are getting stuck, so I need to solve the problem first. I need to bring value to their life so that they come along with me. They&#8217;re going to be my best audience and they&#8217;re going to do the marketing for me.</p>



<p>[00:38:24] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> This stuff is so intuitive to you because obviously it&#8217;s something that you&#8217;ve spent a long time thinking about. I&#8217;ve got to say, for me, a lot of this stuff is kind of intuitive, but not at the same time. I&#8217;m definitely more on the kind of builder side than on the marketing side. I don&#8217;t know what it is about marketing, I just struggle to do those kind of things.</p>



<p>And you&#8217;ve written a lot of your thoughts up in three articles, which you&#8217;ve published on LinkedIn. I don&#8217;t know if they&#8217;ve been published elsewhere, but they&#8217;re definitely on LinkedIn. And they describe all of the different scenarios of, you know, what founders need to do, how plugins can have success, where the community lies, how you can get yourself involved in different things. But also quite a lot of work you&#8217;ve put into what not to do. So example, lifetime deals, which you don&#8217;t think are a particularly great idea.</p>



<p>I&#8217;m going to link to all of those different bits and pieces in the show notes so that people can go and read those, and then hopefully having been armed with all of that knowledge, they&#8217;ll understand better what it is that we&#8217;ve been talking about.</p>



<p>Where do we find you, Muntasir? Where do we go online? Apart from LinkedIn, obviously, where could we find you?</p>



<p>[00:39:28] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> I&#8217;m always available on Facebook, on Twitter. And I am always available on LinkedIn as well. These are the platforms you are going to find me.</p>



<p>[00:39:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, I will link to the LinkedIn posts and I will endeavor to dig out your Twitter handle as well. So hopefully people can find you and if they&#8217;ve got questions, you are open to suggestions.</p>



<p>So thank you so much for chatting to me today. A subject of great interest to me because, well, as I said, there&#8217;s just great interest for me. I won&#8217;t say more than that. But thank you very much for chatting to me today. I really appreciate it.</p>



<p>[00:39:56] <strong>Muntasir Sakib:</strong> Thank you, Nathan. Thank you for talking to me. And it&#8217;s great talking to you and sharing my knowledge and expertise with you.</p>
</div></details>



<p>So on the podcast today we have <a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/muntasir-m-sakib/">Muntasir Sakib</a>.</p>



<p>Muntasir has been active in the WordPress space since 2018, working with well-known plugins and companies such as Tutor LMS, Droip and more. He’s played a key role scaling products from their early days, helping them achieve wider adoption. He’s also been active in the WordPress community more broadly at events such as WordCamp Asia and WordCamp Sylhet.</p>



<p>The focus of today’s episode is a crucial yet often overlooked topic, especially if you’re a plugin developer. It’s a chat about the moment when plugin development ends and real success can begin. In a WordPress marketplace that’s more crowded and competitive than ever, simply ‘build it and they will come’ does not mean users will. Muntasir wants to bust the myth by digging into why marketing is essential from day one, and not an afterthought left until launch day.</p>



<p>We start by learning about Muntasir’s journey through the WordPress ecosystem, and his approach to balancing development and marketing for plugins. He explains the key differences between marketing in the WordPress ecosystem versus the SaaS world. In WordPress, you don’t control the full stack and your users expect openness and interoperability, making community focus and support critical.</p>



<p>The discussion then turns to the practicalities of launching and growing a plugin. Why throwing new features at a product isn’t enough, and why listening to users and building community relationships is often more valuable than racing to add features no one has asked for.</p>



<p>We talk about the do’s and don’ts gained from Muntasir’s experience, including the pitfalls of relying on lifetime deals for early revenue, and why a recurring revenue model is key for long-term sustainability.</p>



<p>We also talk through the role of community, partnerships, and events like WordCamps, not just as marketing opportunities, but as places to build the relationships and collaborations that can help plugins thrive.</p>



<p>If you’re a WordPress plugin developer wondering how to turn a finished product into a real success, or you’re trying to figure out where marketing fits into your roadmap, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p>Project / Events which Muntasir has been involved with:</p>



<p><a href="https://tutorlms.com"> Tutor LMS</a></p>



<p><a href="https://droip.com">Droip</a></p>



<p><a href="https://easycommerce.dev">EasyCommerce</a></p>



<p><a href="https://thumbpress.co">ThumbPress</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.joomshaper.com"> JoomShaper</a></p>



<p> <a href="https://asia.wordcamp.org/2023/">WordCamp Asia 2023</a></p>



<p><a href="https://sylhet.wordcamp.org/2023/">WordCamp Sylhet 2023</a></p>



<p>Three of Muntasir&#8217;s articles on LinkedIn:</p>



<p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-marketing-still-missing-piece-most-wordpress-product-sakib-fdz0c/">Why Marketing Is Still the Missing Piece for Most WordPress Product Companies</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/hidden-cost-lifetime-deals-what-plugin-owners-dont-realize-sakib-pbmqc/">The Hidden Cost of Lifetime Deals: What Plugin Owners Don&#8217;t Realize Until It&#8217;s Too Late</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/after-5-years-10-plugins-heres-why-most-wordpress-products-sakib-fcw0c/">After 5 Years and 10+ Plugins: Here’s Why Most WordPress Products Fail to Scale</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 17 Dec 2025 15:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:45;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:68:"Open Channels FM: Why Context Matters in Accessibility Conversations";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113262";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:75:"https://openchannels.fm/why-context-matters-in-accessibility-conversations/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:177:"Discussions on digital accessibility should prioritize context and collaboration among teams, focusing on empathy and practical scenarios to enhance user experience and support.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 17 Dec 2025 11:05:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:46;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"Matt: Beware Unearned Wisdom";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=150856";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:45:"https://ma.tt/2025/12/beware-unearned-wisdom/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:3957:"<p class="wp-block-paragraph">One of Carl Jung&#8217;s famous quotes is to &#8220;Beware unearned wisdom.&#8221; Sometimes it&#8217;s brought up in the context of psychedelics. From <em><a href="https://www.amazon.com/LSD-Mind-Universe-Diamonds-Heaven/dp/1620559706?tag=photomatt08-20">LSD and the Mind of the Universe by Christopher Bache</a></em>:</p>



<blockquote class="wp-block-quote is-layout-flow wp-block-quote-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-block-paragraph" id="1d2d">Psychedelics give us temporary access to realities beyond our pay grade, allowing us to experience things beyond our normal capacity.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph" id="b3a6">It’s all too easy to think that because we have had a deep and profound experience, we have become a deep and profound person, but this is a fool’s delusion.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph" id="7186">Even when psychedelics allow us to experience the person we are in the process of becoming, we have to face the fact that we have not become this person yet, nor have we fully internalised the wonderful qualities we may have temporarily touched.</p>
</blockquote>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;m starting to see some of the same things happening with vibe coding and LLM writing.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">Sam Kriss at the New York Times took on the inevitably meta task of writing <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2025/12/03/magazine/chatbot-writing-style.html?unlocked_article_code=1.508.ClUh.Sb1fCpBAo94F&amp;smid=url-share&amp;ref=platformer.news">Why Does A.I. Write Like … That?</a> It&#8217;s a good read that will tickle your mind, as the mimetic effects of model training data overfit and influence society, even in how we speak and write when not using AI.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">I&#8217;m starting to get that &#8220;feel&#8221; now, sometimes when using software. The demo or functionality seems amazing, but when you begin to poke around the edges, it all crumbles. We think we have something amazing because a chatbot one-shot an application, but there may be a hidden technical debt there.</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">A big focus for me in this coming year is &#8220;back to basics&#8221;: ensuring the core functionality is robust. You can&#8217;t build a house on a foundation of sand. It&#8217;s very exciting and tempting to go to the new shiny thing, but you only earn that right when the fundamentals are solid. </p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">It&#8217;s been funny <a href="https://www.wsj.com/tech/ai/openais-altman-declares-code-red-to-improve-chatgpt-as-google-threatens-ai-lead-7faf5ea6">hearing about OpenAI&#8217;s Code Red</a>, because about 18 months ago, I declared Code Blue on WordPress.com. In a hospital, Code Red means a fire, which I don&#8217;t think is the analogy OpenAI was going for, but I unfortunately learned <a href="https://ma.tt/2016/04/in-memoriam-chuck-mullenweg/">when my father passed</a> that Code Blue means all hands on deck because a patient has a cardiac or respiratory arrest; it signals a critical, life-threatening medical emergency. All the best specialists swarm in and, hopefully, save the patient. (BTW, on <a href="https://wordpress.com/">WordPress.com</a>, the team has done a fantastic job of shipping literally thousands of bug fixes and quality improvements, and keeping focus on that despite the pull to new initiatives. There&#8217;s much left to do, but it&#8217;s headed in the right direction.)</p>



<p class="wp-block-paragraph">The <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambrian_explosion">Cambrian explosion</a> of new stuff built by AI is just a phase, and AI-assisted coding can actually be incredible for maintenance and bug fixes. But the tools are only as good as the <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hitchhiker%27s_Guide_to_the_Galaxy">questions we ask them</a>, so it will have to battle with human nature&#8217;s addiction to novelty.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 17 Dec 2025 04:21:08 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:47;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:104:"Open Channels FM: Open Channels FM Announces the Return of Do the Woo as a Dedicated WooCommerce Podcast";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113549";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:111:"https://openchannels.fm/open-channels-fm-announces-the-return-of-do-the-woo-as-a-dedicated-woocommerce-podcast/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:284:"PRESS RELEASE: The relaunch of the Do the Woo podcast under the Open Channels network aims to create a dedicated platform for the WooCommerce ecosystem. It will provide insights and discussions tailored for merchants, developers, and product teams, starting with guest Matt Mullenweg.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 16 Dec 2025 15:19:01 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:48;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:78:"Open Channels FM: Relaunching Do the Woo Podcast for the WooCommerce Ecosystem";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113479";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:85:"https://openchannels.fm/relaunching-do-the-woo-podcast-for-the-woocommerce-ecosystem/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:177:"The Do the Woo podcast is relaunching as a dedicated platform for the WooCommerce community, focusing on unique challenges and innovations, hosted by James Kemp and Katie Keith.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 16 Dec 2025 12:03:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Katie Keith";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:49;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:21:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:103:"Open Channels FM: Do the Woo Podcast is Back with Conversations for Builders, Merchants, and Developers";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33:"https://openchannels.fm/?p=113449";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:108:"https://openchannels.fm/do-the-woo-podcast-is-back-with-conversations-for-builders-merchants-and-developers/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:216:"The "Do the Woo" podcast is returning, focusing on WooCommerce insights, featuring industry leaders. It will include lively discussions, audience Q&#038;As, and monthly episodes with hosts James Kemp and Katie Keith.";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 16 Dec 2025 12:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}s:4:"type";i:128;s:7:"headers";a:9:{s:6:"server";s:5:"nginx";s:4:"date";s:29:"Tue, 27 Jan 2026 10:19:25 GMT";s:12:"content-type";s:8:"text/xml";s:13:"last-modified";s:29:"Tue, 27 Jan 2026 10:00:22 GMT";s:4:"vary";s:15:"Accept-Encoding";s:15:"x-frame-options";s:10:"SAMEORIGIN";s:16:"content-encoding";s:4:"gzip";s:7:"alt-svc";s:19:"h3=":443"; ma=86400";s:4:"x-nc";s:9:"HIT ord 2";}s:5:"build";i:1760643936;s:21:"cache_expiration_time";i:1769552365;s:23:"__cache_expiration_time";i:1769552365;}